GT350 vs. Z/28

[Taneras]

For the new z28 size prediction i am attaching this picture here. Enjoy.

I wonder how that compares to the S550... Wasn't the Camaro's dimensions already a little bigger? I assumed to considering the weight difference between the Zeta and the S197.

If it down sizes a bit I think that'd be awesome so long as it keeps about the same interior space as the S550 or S197. :cheers:

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[Erik427]

Oh yes, but it is difficult to have all three at this point. Granted, the Coyotes isn't bad to begin with.

Do you think there is any chance of a tall deck version of the Coyote/Voodo? Much like the 5.4 was to the 4.6 mod motor. A N/A 5.8 tall deck Coyote would be a good answer to the 6.2 LT.

 

[Sasuketr]

I don't know how roomy you guys want a coupe sports car to be? I wish the current mustang was only 5% smaller! Its physics, you either drive a roomy car with a boat handling(challenger & charger) or a smaller car with less weight and agile handling! If you really want both then a GTR might serve well lol

 

[Grimace427]

Add 4 grand on top of the base gt350 price which is 52.5 grand maybe even more.

Again, we don't have an official price for the GT350. You are going off a rumor article from one of the least respected websites ever posted on this forum.

 

[lil=john]

Do you think there is any chance of a tall deck version of the Coyote/Voodo? Much like the 5.4 was to the 4.6 mod motor. A N/A 5.8 tall deck Coyote would be a good answer to the 6.2 LT.

Or even a short deck 6.2 with DOHC. I would love to have that bore size.

 

[thePill]

If you are starting with the Voodoo as we speculate it is (94 x 92.7), and you want to lower displacement and increase RPM, then the most effective way to do it is to lower the stroke not the bore.

Reducing bore does gain some in terms of mass reduction, but does nothing for piston speeds or accelerations. Reducing bore also reduces potential valve area (not sure if Voodoo is using larger valves or not, but more valve area is one of the key advantages to having a larger bore).

Reducing stroke will reduce piston speeds and accelerations, as well as allow a shorter deck height (or, if you maintain the deck height, it will allow for an improved rod:stroke ratio). And it does this without affecting the valve area and breathing capability of the engine.

If Ford wanted a smaller, higher revving engine, then the best way to do it would be to reduce stroke first.

-T

For all other applications, yes, the stroke will have the greatest effect. However, this Voodoo already has a shared Coyote stroke and Ford is using PTWA. The only logical next step would be to lower the bore in this particular situation. All other manufacturers have failed at a 5 liter FPC anything let alone a V8. Ford has an potential to engineer the worlds first 5+ liter, completely square V8 with a really nice Rod:Stroke ratio. This has never happened. A 94mm bore on a FPC V8 is insane... a 92.7 inch stroke on a FPC V8 is even crazier... but the bore is more likely to be altered with the tech Ford has (PTWA) instead of re-engineering the Coyote's bottom end. The PTWA process is in use, it would cost very little to lower that bore... that is IF R&D wasn't done on a 5.0 Voodoo to start.

Erik and John bring up another possibility, a tall deck Coyote.

I wouldn't expect anything tall decked unless they have a 351 Mach 1 in the tube. It just doesn't make profitable sense...

This Voodoo will absolutely need to be restricted once it hits Pro. More so than the Boss 302, M3 and z28. Which strikes me as very odd on a pure Motorsport engine. They already knew the Boss was in hot water, why turn it up now? The only motive I see is a possible BMW FPC V8. The 5 liter mark was probably a mix of nostalgia and "see if we can".

Even this "Voodoo Child" will need to be choked up some.

 

[Trackaholic]

For all other applications, yes, the stroke will have the greatest effect. However, this Voodoo already has a shared Coyote stroke and Ford is using PTWA. The only logical next step would be to lower the bore in this particular situation. All other manufacturers have failed at a 5 liter FPC anything let alone a V8. Ford has an potential to engineer the worlds first 5+ liter, completely square V8 with a really nice Rod:Stroke ratio. This has never happened. A 94mm bore on a FPC V8 is insane... a 92.7 inch stroke on a FPC V8 is even crazier... but the bore is more likely to be altered with the tech Ford has (PTWA) instead of re-engineering the Coyote's bottom end. The PTWA process is in use, it would cost very little to lower that bore... that is IF R&D wasn't done on a 5.0 Voodoo to start.

Erik and John bring up another possibility, a tall deck Coyote.

I wouldn't expect anything tall decked unless they have a 351 Mach 1 in the tube. It just doesn't make profitable sense...

This Voodoo will absolutely need to be restricted once it hits Pro. More so than the Boss 302, M3 and z28. Which strikes me as very odd on a pure Motorsport engine. They already knew the Boss was in hot water, why turn it up now? The only motive I see is a possible BMW FPC V8. The 5 liter mark was probably a mix of nostalgia and "see if we can".

Even this "Voodoo Child" will need to be choked up some.

I'm not understanding your logic. The assumption is that Ford used PTWA to increase the bore by removing the cylinder liners. If they were going to reduce the bore back to the standard Coyote bore, they wouldn't need PTWA and could go back to cylinder liners. So not sure why you are talking about PTWA as a method to reduce the bore?

Secondly, the Voodoo already has a completely different crankshaft and firing order than coyote. How does reducing the stroke require anything more than a new crankshaft and conn rods? If you reduce the bore you need a new block and new pistons, which is going to be a similar amount of work, and maybe more depending on what is going on with the valves.

I maintain that the easiest way to reduce displacement and go higher revving is to reduce the stroke.

Finally, there isn't anything magical about a square engine configuration. It's just a point of reference in terms of feel. Longer stroke engines are more likely to be torque-centric, while short stroke motors are more likely to be rev-centric. No reason that being square makes an engine all of a sudden more powerful.

-T

 

[Doc Holliday]

I think you are making this into something it's not.

If the 5.2's bore is reduced, it will in fact free up rotational mass. That is the only point here, nothing to do with stroke.

This engine in general has a larger bore. The key here is to be still over 5 liters and still have a near square bore/stroke.

Decreasing the Voodoo's stroke would cost significantly more since further R&D would need done on the Coyote. Far more than a simple bore increase which they have done.

If Ford backs the Voodoo down to a 92.7x92.7mm, it leaves the displacement at exactly 5.005. That small reduction in piston mass would probably translate to an RPM increase just as long as fuel delivery isn't an issue.

A good reason to increase the Coyotes bore is, as was mentioned above, to open up the valves and eliminate shrouding. If I was Ford and had PTWA but DI wasn't going to be ready until the Camaro, I'd increase the bore to help flow. The stock Yote can't spin to 8200 or make much stock power passed 7200. In order for the current Voodoo to feed 8200rpm, it needed more fuel (gas and air). Right now, Direct Injection is in the deck.

All the engines and manufacturers above couldn't build a square FPC engine let alone V8. Reducing the stroke to that level benefits rod:stroke but, it isn't square and it isn't over 5 liters. Nobody but Ford has done this...

The Ferrari 458's 4.5L V8 uses a 94mm bore and 81mm stroke. The Speciale version at 597 hp, 132.7hp/L, is the most power dense NA engine on the current market, to my knowledge. Like someone else posted, if something were to be changed on the Voodoo, I would rather see a reduction in stroke. Keep the bore. Smaller pistons would get you less rotational mass, but so would shorter crank throws with the added benefit of lower piston speeds at a given RPM and probably less vibration issues. Just my 2 cents, and you get what you pay for.

 

[Stuntman]

FPC engines have less rotational mass than CPC, and the stroke length (leverage) has a lot to do with rotational mass. The piston weight is more reciprocating mass than rotational.

 

[thePill]

The Ferrari 458's 4.5L V8 uses a 94mm bore and 81mm stroke. The Speciale version at 597 hp, 132.7hp/L, is the most power dense NA engine on the current market, to my knowledge. Like someone else posted, if something were to be changed on the Voodoo, I would rather see a reduction in stroke. Keep the bore. Smaller pistons would get you less rotational mass, but so would shorter crank throws with the added benefit of lower piston speeds at a given RPM and probably less vibration issues. Just my 2 cents, and you get what you pay for.

What would Ford need to make a 289?

I would also like to see a traditional setup, I just don't think Ford is in the same position as Ferrari is on the 4.5. It would have a significant cost increase and I just don't see the Voodoo competing with the 4.5 on the 600hp level. If the engine is under $15,000 I will sh!t myself. I would like to keep the current engine as close to that MSRP as possible or it ceases to be of real value.

The Voodoo is overpowered as is. I feel a reduction in bore using PTWA is the best possible solution. Sure, I would like to see if they can make a 4.5 competitor in a 289 using a similar configuration. I just think that would start putting the GT350 and the Voodoo further out of real racing consideration.

I say try it... If they do intend on competing with Ferrari (Big words here), then I feel a nice little 4.7 FPC would be a really cool project and worth a serious look.

However, I feel that this Voodoo was originally intended to compete with a possible BMW variation that was rumored to possibly reach 4.9 liters. Hence the strange displacement increase for seemingly nothing. Now with some brainstorming, we can conclude that the bore:

a.) Was to increase airflow and reduce shrouding until direct injection.

b.) Was likely increased using the 4.5 liter Ferrari FPC V8 as a templet. A future short-stroke Voodoo could be possible, maybe displacing 4.7 liters (or 289ci). This could add a significant increase to MSRP and replacement cost as futher, extensive R&D would need to be done (or already has been).

c.) Could have been increased to trump a possible 4.9/5.0 liter BMW FPC V8.

There are two strong possibilities for future competitive engine configurations. While both would indeed be Coyote based, Voodoo's, they would be very different in both function and performance.

The main idea here is the future restrictions that are bound to be applied to the current 5.1 Voodoo (not 5.2 if those measurements were correct). A cheap and easy alternative would be to PTWA the block back down. While that may not be a World Beating FPC V8 in a traditional sense, they achieve some things with this approach.

First, they have to ability to change the displacement on the fly. A far better option than intake restriction and far less damaging to the engine.

Second, they have the the ability to make a completely square FPC V8 that would spin over 8200RPM's and still displace the famous 5.0 liters.

Third, they have successfully stabilized a FPC that displaces over 5 liters. This is difficult to do all while still maintaining an 8200RPM redline, still making 100hp per liter and not being vibrated to death.

A lastly... Get this engine to us for around $15,000 and I won't care what a Ferrari, Porsche or BMW can do...

The other possible engine configuration could in fact be a 4.7 that has a more traditional FPC stroke. This engine would be more expensive for sure on every end.


Either way, I personally feel (as well as a select few others) that the 5.2 displacement will be short lived. This will mainly be a Motorsport restriction as even the LS7 found out, there is no replacement for displacement... ALMS forced Chevy to reduced the LS7 down to 5.5 liters because it couldn't be restricted properly. Homologation is a lot different in that class but, they bent the knee (Game of Thrones!!!)

 

[thePill]

Here is, in my opinion, some expert work of a GT and GT350 comparison. While I am sure the angles are not identical, this really illustrates the difference from the A-Pillars up. The mastermind here is member Cruise and I must say... It is very different...

GT vs. GT350

The track on the GT350 was suppose to increase by a very large amount. The track differences are outstanding!!!

 

[Agarc]

dam that slope lol from that side shoot the car looks great

 

[Stuntman]

However, I feel that this Voodoo was originally intended to compete with a possible BMW variation that was rumored to possibly reach 4.9 liters.

Where did you hear this? I highly doubt its true since the M5 went from a 5L V8 to a 5L V10 to a 4.4L TT V8. The M3 went from a 3.2L I6 to a 4.0L V8 (with a 4.4L stroked homologation special variant) to a 3.0L TT I6. They are moving away from high revving NA motors in favor of smaller displacement FI, just like the rest of the world..

 

[Arthonon]

It's subtle, but the hood line on the GT350 just looks so much better than the standard hood to me. I don't think I could buy a standard GT now that I've seen the GT350 front end.

 

[thePill]

Where did you hear this? I highly doubt its true since the M5 went from a 5L V8 to a 5L V10 to a 4.4L TT V8. The M3 went from a 3.2L I6 to a 4.0L V8 (with a 4.4L stroked homologation special variant) to a 3.0L TT I6. They are moving away from high revving NA motors in favor of smaller displacement FI, just like the rest of the world..

I never said the BMW engine was green lighted, it more than likely encountered an issue and was axed from any OEM conversation. Ford did it, BMW failed in one way or another.

The Voodoo was rumored clear back as far as 2011 which would have been around the same time if I am not mistaken.

...and not everyone is moving to less cylinders. Only those that have an extreme desire to be marketable. Right now, BMW doesn't have a new engine ready for competition. The 4.0 is still used in racing and that doesn't seem likely to change. I believe a biturbo is considered twin turbo and is usually not permitted in these classes. BMW will need an actual replacement for the 4.0 and the TT is not it. This would certainly be a good time to go FPC now that Ford has a competitior in this field.

Chalk that stupid TT V6, as well as a 110 inch wheelbase, up to different priorities. That being sales and not Motorsport. BMW has lost some fire the last decade... Porsche on the other hand...

The Corvette/Z06 is another victim of poor sales. Who ever thought a supercharged Z06 was a good idea should have been shot.

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