GT350 vs. Z/28

[Pablo GT350]

The Voodoo is overpowered as is.

Oh no you didn't (just say that). You can never have too much power. You are so focused on racing but most people aren't buying these cars to go racing. This is a street car. More displacement is better. Based on what BMW has gotten away with in racing I guess Ford could do whatever they want displacement wise in Continental but I don't see how its relevent in the real (non-racing ) world.

I feel a reduction in bore using PTWA is the best possible solution.

This just makes no sense. PTWA is for increasing bore, not reducing it. And as other have stated there is no need to reduce the bore. Decreasing the stroke will allow higher rpm and higher HP.

I guess ur point is to reduce horsepower and displacement for racing, but I doubt the rest of us are focused on that like you are.

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[Stuntman]

I never said the BMW engine was green lighted, it more than likely encountered an issue and was axed from any OEM conversation. Ford did it, BMW failed in one way or another.

The Voodoo was rumored clear back as far as 2011 which would have been around the same time if I am not mistaken.

...and not everyone is moving to less cylinders. Only those that have an extreme desire to be marketable. Right now, BMW doesn't have a new engine ready for competition. The 4.0 is still used in racing and that doesn't seem likely to change. I believe a biturbo is considered twin turbo and is usually not permitted in these classes. BMW will need an actual replacement for the 4.0 and the TT is not it. This would certainly be a good time to go FPC now that Ford has a competitior in this field.

Chalk that stupid TT V6, as well as a 110 inch wheelbase, up to different priorities. That being sales and not Motorsport. BMW has lost some fire the last decade... Porsche on the other hand...

The Corvette/Z06 is another victim of poor sales. Who ever thought a supercharged Z06 was a good idea should have been shot.

BMW failed at something they never attempted because you said they did? You have interesting ways of putting other brands down for no reason...

There's already a FPC TT V8 in the GT3 class (McLaren) and Ferrari will be next to follow suit. I'm sure you'll see other brands including Porsche race FI cars on a global level since IIRC, most 911s will be turbocharged here shortly.

I think everyone is going toward smaller displacement, FI engines. BMW, Mercedes, Ferrari, McLaren, Porsche, Ford Ecoboost, etc... I think the 5.2L FPC GT350 is pretty awesome to have been created when the industry is going the opposite way, but both the BMW & Mercedes examples have greatly increased power and fuel economy by going in that direction vs. their larger displacement NA motors.

 

[thePill]

Oh no you didn't (just say that). You can never have too much power. You are so focused on racing but most people aren't buying these cars to go racing. This is a street car. More displacement is better. Based on what BMW has gotten away with in racing I guess Ford could do whatever they want displacement wise in Continental but I don't see how its relevent in the real (non-racing ) world.



This just makes no sense. PTWA is for increasing bore, not reducing it. And as other have stated there is no need to reduce the bore. Decreasing the stroke will allow higher rpm and higher HP.

I guess ur point is to reduce horsepower and displacement for racing, but I doubt the rest of us are focused on that like you are.

Actually, it works both ways but I am sure that is still secret. Once you remove the iron liners in the traditional block, the remaining hole is usually very large compared to the existing bore and usually not just merely coated over.

Block would need retooling either way, just as the Trinity. I would prefer a retooled 92.7 bore Voodoo just for the potential for larger, retooled cooling paths. Coyote type heads would be used which could possible offset some cost. There are a lot of possibilities with PTWA.

Here is the GT500/GTR article. You can see that the 5.8 is completely different not just in bore but the cooling passages. This is a cost the Voodoo has to suffer anyway, and I can expect cooling passage work on the Voodoo similar to the Trinity. Due just on bore increase alone...

http://jalopnik.com/5467038/the-ford-engine-technology-good-enough-for-the-nissan-gt-r

Using the existing Coyote deck work would save cost. Although, I admit, even though the Coyote is proclaimed square, I feel square is square and not slightly one way or the other. It would still be 5 liters (4.95x) and some could call it square.

These PTWA liners add roughly .6mm to the bore, twice that if counting both sides (1.2mm). the iron liners are about 2-3mm's per side or 6 total. The hole in the Coyote is actually 96-98mm once the iron liners are removed.

In many respects, the Coyote's hole was probably decreased overall since the liners were not taking up 4-6mm of metal out of the block. In fact, the Voodoo had a 95.2mm hole before PTWA sprayed in the extra 1.2mm of lining. The Coyote has a 96-98mm hole before the liners go in (at 2-3mm).

So, in all respects, the Coyote's walls most likely got thicker as did the cooling passages when evolving to the Voodoo. A 5.0 Voodoo would have gapping coolant passages which is super idea in every application.

This engine is going to rock... unfortunately, if the Boss 302 already was too much, the GT350 Voodoo will likely be overkill.

It's okay though... due to homologation, we the customer will actually get to experience this progressive Motorsport R&D first hand. We can even help offset the cost of R&D by buying these cars and supporting this behavior.

Ford is probably the most serious about the relation to racing and OEM right now. They are actually producing technology in accordance with Professional Motorsports and even making great leaps in the Amateur department with the GT and GTPP. They used the SCCA rule book to dictate the standard and Performance pack equipment on the GT's. How awesome is that for guys that are concerned about this area.

BMW failed at something they never attempted because you said they did? You have interesting ways of putting other brands down for no reason...

There's already a FPC TT V8 in the GT3 class (McLaren) and Ferrari will be next to follow suit. I'm sure you'll see other brands including Porsche race FI cars on a global level since IIRC, most 911s will be turbocharged here shortly.

I think everyone is going toward smaller displacement, FI engines. BMW, Mercedes, Ferrari, McLaren, Porsche, Ford Ecoboost, etc... I think the 5.2L FPC GT350 is pretty awesome to have been created when the industry is going the opposite way, but both the BMW & Mercedes examples have greatly increased power and fuel economy by going in that direction vs. their larger displacement NA motors.

You whine a lot...

Did BMW do R&D on a FPC V8? Yes...

Was it successful in racing? No...

Was it used in an OEM vehicle? No...

Was it a failure? Yes...

For reasons unknown, it no longer exist. Maybe durability, cost, NVH in OEM applications...

They didn't fail because I said so, they failed because the experiment is NO LONGER or, deeply hidden. Not a conspiracy, just the facts. Ford built and offered an engine that BMW hasn't.

Did Ford do R&D on a FPC V8? Yes...

Is it used on an OEM vehicle? Yes...

Will it be successful in racing? Unknown.

Will it be a failure? If it fails in racing, it will be a huge failure in my opinion. Because it's sole purpose is racing with OEM as a requirement to race to begin with. If the engine is far less expensive than any other FPC engine, it will help. If it has durability issues, it is a failure... plain and simple...

Edit: As soon as the Mustang and M4 enter GT3 or F1 in OEM form, let me know. I am eager to see a Mustang with a Prototype engine.

The industry isn't going in any one certain way as you suggest. A Flat Plane Crank is very, very desirable for road racing just on the reduction in shifts.

 

[Erik427]

Oh no you didn't (just say that). You can never have too much power. You are so focused on racing but most people aren't buying these cars to go racing. This is a street car. More displacement is better. Based on what BMW has gotten away with in racing I guess Ford could do whatever they want displacement wise in Continental but I don't see how its relevent in the real (non-racing ) world.



This just makes no sense. PTWA is for increasing bore, not reducing it. And as other have stated there is no need to reduce the bore. Decreasing the stroke will allow higher rpm and higher HP.

I guess ur point is to reduce horsepower and displacement for racing, but I doubt the rest of us are focused on that like you are.

In terms of racing. The Voodo is over powered. The racing gods will restrict this motor down to about 350hp. Chevy will be allowed a huge advantage.....Remember, SCCA is owned by NASCAR now. Pro Chevy bias is legendary in NASCAR.

 

[Stuntman]

Did BMW do R&D on a FPC V8? Yes...

Was it successful in racing? No...

Was it used in an OEM vehicle? No...

Was it a failure? Yes...

For reasons unknown, it no longer exist. Maybe durability, cost, NVH in OEM applications...

They didn't fail because I said so, they failed because the experiment is NO LONGER or, deeply hidden. Not a conspiracy, just the facts. Ford built and offered an engine that BMW hasn't.

Did Ford do R&D on a FPC V8? Yes...

Is it used on an OEM vehicle? Yes...

Will it be successful in racing? Unknown.

Will it be a failure? If it fails in racing, it will be a huge failure in my opinion. Because it's sole purpose is racing with OEM as a requirement to race to begin with. If the engine is far less expensive than any other FPC engine, it will help. If it has durability issues, it is a failure... plain and simple...

Edit: As soon as the Mustang and M4 enter GT3 or F1 in OEM form, let me know. I am eager to see a Mustang with a Prototype engine.

The industry isn't going in any one certain way as you suggest. A Flat Plane Crank is very, very desirable for road racing just on the reduction in shifts.

I guess winning the ALMS GT championship (winning 7/10 races) and the 24 Hours of Nurburgring overall twice with a FPC V8, then becoming banned means it was a failure in racing...

Edit: and the Z4 GT3 (with the FPC V8) won the 2011 GT300 championship, and 4 races including the 6-hours of Watkins Glen in the Tudor Championship must mean it was a bad motor...

 

[Sasuketr]

It's subtle, but the hood line on the GT350 just looks so much better than the standard hood to me. I don't think I could buy a standard GT now that I've seen the GT350 front end.

I don't think its the slope, the gt hood has those two lines sticking out on the hood, gt 350 has the air vent in the middle and no two lines coming up! The slope and design of the hood looks the same!

 

[thePill]

I guess winning the ALMS GT championship (winning 7/10 races) and the 24 Hours of Nurburgring overall twice with a FPC V8, then becoming banned means it was a failure in racing...

It is if the organized body made them change it. It was a racing failure... You need to homologate the engine and vehicle within a certain time frame. Thay are allowed a developement year and that is about it. I am sure there are waivers but after a year... you need to move on.

Ford was pressured out of the Cammer by NASCAR after they bought Grand Am. Ford should of had an answer long before Jan '09 and BMW had every right to b!tch. Same thing happend to BMW again, the engine proved fruitless at that level as well as OEM. Maybe higher up but as you say, they are starting to use turbo V8's in GT3. Not much room for an NA FPC V8 anymore above above homologation classes.

Anyone can build an awesome one off engine, look at the Cammer 5.0 or the Yate's 5.3 in GT3. But these classes require it to be near factory in most cases. MARC VDS raced maybe 1 season and the engine was banned.

 

[Sasuketr]

First thing first lets put that spoiler on a gtpp or make it a part of the package:cheers:

 

[thePill]

First thing first lets put that spoiler on a gtpp or make it a part of the package:cheers:

Then swap out the Getrag for the GT350's Tremec and give us a real Competition focused GT with some GT350 underpinnings and maybe a 275 all around.

I am still betting on Ford making a move in this direction once the GT350 is out (to market the part upgrades) and the Camaro looms in comparisons just to match it MSRP for MSRP without the Premium or options checked. Just as the 1LE took advantage of the GT's neutrality on a Competition version, this MGTR would effectively hold off any Camaro's until they come up with a 1LE replacement, shortly after their HALO Camaro is revealed. It would buy them a lot of time, enough for DI if it is a future option.

Edit: Said MGTR should also utilize the Convertibles extra 1/2 inch of track. I still want to know how that is done if anyone knows what is different. I doubt the wheels but if so, that is an easy mod for us on the AM level. a 1/2 inch of track is a lot of room granted.

 

[thePill]

HOMEWORK:

The 2015 Mustang GT Convertible has an extra 0.25-0.5 inches of track.

Can anyone confirm this other than Ford?

Can anyone confirm how it is done (hub, links, wheel, tire)?

Any organized bodies hip to this?

This could be a Solo/TT advantage like never before.

LADIES AND GENTS!!! GREY IS IN!!!

Black Swan in the background

Some things to think about, the GT350's lower hood line may not allow any top loaded supercharging. However, the GT's does support a supercharger. Maybe the reason the hood is higher on the GT is not only because of Euro ped standards, it may have also been a supercharger support function until the Ecoboost is ready.

The higher hood line makes even more sense at this point in the Gen. These are the soft years anyway, it is suppose to start out with the "Classic" look and evolve. Once the Ecoboost is ready (Direct Injection is needed) then the lower hood line will be incorporated in. I think active hood may need to be in place as well. Maybe not though... we never know...

 

[Erik427]

I see the GT getting the GT 350 nose as a upgrade soon. Here are some of the wishes that I would like to see as well from the GT 350 "Project". 5.2 block and heads. 5.8 tall deck version of the Voodo or at least the Coyote. Alloy short deck version of the 6.2 with DOHC 4 valve heads. TT 2.7 and 3.5 as options for Mustang the line up. This would open the door for names like CobraJet, MACH 1, LX and maybe a few new trim levels. Just a opinion.......

 

[thePill]

I agree Erik, I was told long ago that the GT350 was going to be even more different in appearance than the 2010 GT500 and GT. That part is for sure now, it is a completely different car.

I also mentioned that the GT was designed from the GT350 as I feel it was the initial end goal. However, as I said, with the aftermarket loving root S/C'ers, Euro GTA Ped Crash standards and the looming possibility that the 2017 GT500 may start out as a Roots type blown Coyote... only changing when to an Ecoboost system once DI is ready.

...and if you think they don't have a working DI Coyote, you would most likely be mistaken. DI is an Ecoboost requirement...


Lots of awesome points made today, I would have trouble arguing any of what was posted previously. That doesn't mean any of it is even close to reality. The 5.2 just raised some racing questions and concerns that are very real. If this is a 5 year deal minimum, I feel that there will need to be a real answer to restriction and reducing the bore is the most cost efficient way. The R&D was most likely conducted on a 92.2/92.7 Coyote Bore:Stroke. Maybe even with iron liners even... who knows. Maybe crank clearance limits the engine to 94mm. But, since the 92.7 already works, I doubt it.

Lots of cool design/function talk too with the GT350 differences while the GT caters to FI and EU Standards.

 

[Arthonon]

I don't think its the slope, the gt hood has those two lines sticking out on the hood, gt 350 has the air vent in the middle and no two lines coming up! The slope and design of the hood looks the same!

Could be, just looks like it begins a downward slope earlier, and curves downward toward the nose earlier as well.

 

[Erik427]

For some reason I see a 3.5TT in the future. I also think the GT 350 nose might be a upgrade for the 2017 model year.

 

[Taneras]

For some reason I see a 3.5TT in the future. I also think the GT 350 nose might be a upgrade for the 2017 model year.

They went a TT V6 in the upcoming Ford GT's, so yea I could eventually see a halo version of a Mustang having something like that.

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