GT350 vs Hellcat: different class or competitors?

[Taneras]

Because most people aren't professional level drivers and can't come near what the magazine does

I'm guessing you jumped in at the tail end of this conversation.

The OP is claiming his friend did a legitimate 1.02g lateral acceleration on a Hellcat with stock tires. Magazines are getting .92-.94. So his buddy is heads and shoulders better than the magazine results no the other way around.

Or some are so fr out there high or low that you wonder who paid them off to skew the results. I never ever consider magazine times.

Looking at cross-sections from various magazines with regards to skidpad results all seem to mesh.

Hellcat: .92-.94
S550 GTPP: .94-.96
GT350: .98-1.0
GT350R: 1.07-1.09

Considering skidpads are almost exclusively a test of tire quality/size and car weight and considering the quality/size of the stock tires provided for the cars above and their respective weights combined with several magazines all testing the same leds me to trust their collection of tests over a forum member's story about some guy they know who pulled a 1.02g lateral acceleration for which we still don't have a picture of.

I'm not saying that they're gospel, just saying that they can be a useful tool and I think with regards to skidpad numbers the 1.02g for a 4,560lb car with 275 Pirelli p-zero tires just isn't happening. No. Just no.

I would rather look to forum members with real world unbiased timeslips

Outside of 1/4 mile times, you don't see a lot of "real world data" from forum members. Not a lot of lap times, skidpad numbers, figure 8 numbers, slalom numbers, etc... When discussing these sorts of things outside of magazines what's a good source of information?

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[Caballus]

I'm guessing you jumped in at the tail end of this conversation.

The OP is claiming his friend did a legitimate 1.02g lateral acceleration on a Hellcat with stock tires. Magazines are getting .92-.94. So his buddy is heads and shoulders better than the magazine results no the other way around.

Considering skidpads are almost exclusively a test of tire quality/size and car weight and considering the quality/size of the stock tires provided for the cars above and their respective weights combined with several magazines all testing the same leds me to trust their collection of tests over a forum member's story about some guy they know who pulled a 1.02g lateral acceleration for which we still don't have a picture of.

I'm not saying that they're gospel, just saying that they can be a useful tool and I think with regards to skidpad numbers the 1.02g for a 4,560lb car with 275 Pirelli p-zero tires just isn't happening. No. Just no.

I said before that the picture was on a different computer and I'd get it in a few days. I had absolutely no desire to go into work today for a silly picture, but did so just to make the point. Hopefully, the attached pictures help do that. I guess the next accusation will be that it was photoshopped...sad...

But, back to the main point. As you can see, the car pulled 1.02 on the skidpad in one direction and 1.0 in the other--oh, wait, never trust a track app, right?

I was seriously considering encouraging my buddies to start a group blog when I get my car to share our experiences with other car enthusiasts back home. Hate to say it, but you are making me seriously reconsider...

Edited out the references to driving opportunities here. Will save that for a different topic/forum...

Now back to my (Shadow Black) bench lol

 

[bluebeastsrt]

Never trust the track app! Right!

 

[Taneras]

But, back to the main point. As you can see, the car pulled 1.02 on the skidpad in one direction and 1.0 in the other--oh, wait, never trust a track app, right?

Considering its a huge outlier with dozens of other skidpad tests done from MotorTrend, Car and Driver, and others spanning across multiple brands and models (Camaros, Corvettes, Mustangs, etc.) yes it does look to be unreliable. If that reading is legitimate then all of the other skidpad readings are way off.

But you know what, lets say its 100% accurate. He had stock tires, and his Hellcat pulled 1.02g's in lateral acceleration. Now what?

Well, a Hellcat is ~4,550lbs and its stock tires are 275 Pirelli P Zero Summer tires. What about the GT-PP? It's ~3,750lbs and has 255/275 (front and back) Pirelli P Zero Summer tires as well.

So it gives up 40 millimeters of tire contact up front but also weighs 800lbs less.

If a Hellcat does 1.02g, a GT-PP is probably in the 1.05g neighborhood. This works for everything else. Corvettes are now much higher, the GT350 is now much higher, etc.

That 1.02g number is still less impressive and the Hellcat is still being out handled by a mid 30k pony car with a *VERY* mild suspension and tire package.

I was seriously considering encouraging my buddies to start a group blog when I get my car to share our experiences with other car enthusiasts back home. Hate to say it, but you are making me seriously reconsider...

If your buddies don't get so emotionally attached to arguments they'll do just fine. :frusty: You pulled a similar defensive knee jerk when someone posted lap times and had the Hellcat being beat by a GT-PP by suggesting that wasn't a real track. I get it, you really think that the Hellcat is a good handling car. And I'm sure on some subjective metrics it is. Just keep in mind where its at on the totem pole. It's below a mid 30k pony car with a very mild suspension and tire package.

 

[Caballus]

Considering its a huge outlier with dozens of other skidpad tests done from MotorTrend, Car and Driver, and others spanning across multiple brands and models (Camaros, Corvettes, Mustangs, etc.) yes it does look to be unreliable.

If that reading is legitimate then all of the other skidpad readings are way off.

But you know what, lets say its 100% accurate. He had stock tires, and his Hellcat pulled 1.02g's in lateral acceleration. Now what?

Well, a Hellcat is ~4,550lbs and its stock tires are 275 Pirelli P Zero Summer tires. What about the GT-PP? It's ~3,750lbs and has 255/275 (front and back) Pirelli P Zero Summer tires as well.

So it gives up 40 millimeters of tire contact up front but also weighs 800lbs less.

If a Hellcat does 1.02g, a GT-PP is probably in the 1.05g neighborhood. This works for everything else. Corvettes are now much higher, the GT350 is now much higher, etc.

That 1.02g number is still less impressive and the Hellcat is still being out handled by a mid 30k pony car with a *VERY* mild suspension and tire package.



If your buddies don't get so emotionally attached to arguments they'll do just fine. :frusty: You pulled a similar defensive knee jerk when someone posted lap times and had the Hellcat being beat by a GT-PP by suggesting that wasn't a real track.

I get it, you really think that the Hellcat is a good handling car. And I'm sure on some subjective metrics it is. Just keep in mind where its at on the totem pole. It's below a mid 30k pony car with a very mild suspension and tire package.

LOL...this is hilarious and seems to be becoming quite personal.


Emotionally attached to arguments? HAHA. That is beyond hilarious, it's hysterical. LOL. Other than a reasonable sense of humor (and mild touch of sarcasm--all controlled), I've never been known for my emotion--nor paid for it. I doubt that this thread will change that LOL. I am, however, amazed at your ability to read emotion from text of someone whom you do not know...lol...

The knee jerk you mentioned was a joke, said immediately after having been talking about a 13 mile track. Perhaps that does't carry over well via text either, but then again, if I recall, the one who misunderstood it thought Toyota was being serious when they bragged about the Prius being fast LOL...nonetheless, won't quit may day job for comedy.

Another way to view 'emotional arguments' about the HC is as facts and data being provided to someone who continues to deny them and insulate the fact provider is a liar and measuring equipment is uncalibrated...another hilarious thought for anyone who actually knows me...LOL!! ("The OP is claiming..." "...the same leds me to trust their collection of tests over a forum member's story about some guy they know who pulled a 1.02g lateral acceleration for which we still don't have a picture of.")

Those facts are then replaced with speculation: "If a Hellcat does 1.02g, a GT-PP is probably in the 1.05g neighborhood." Probably?? Based on...? Hmmm...fact, backed up with a picture versus speculation...hmmm...or is it opinion? Oh wait; there's no sex involved...never mind LOL.

New facts:

1. Car is 100% stock, to include all season tires that I give him crap about. Not even so much as an oil separator, much less new tires. Fact--period. Won't provide waste time providing a picture to 'prove' that...

2. I never said the Hellcat is a good handling car--have fun looking for that quote. Instead, what will be found is "My point has been, and remains, that the Hellcat is not simply a straight line racer. It is a spirited all around performance car straight off the assembly line. It performs well on the track and strip...and can hold it's own (if not totally outrun) any other American production car on the Autobahn."

I wonder if the van Sabine was driving was rated to do what she put it through. Oh wait, there's a suggestion there that a particular driver may be able to push a vehicle beyond it's previously tested limits...with video and pictures to prove it...

Anyway, question remains, HC and GT350 same class? Does the HC compensate where the GT350 is weak and vice versa?

 

[Hack]

Anyway, question remains, HC and GT350 same class? Does the HC compensate where the GT350 is weak and vice versa?

IMO without real rear tires and aero, the Hellcat is a cartoon car. Obviously the engineers didn't care to make it actually perform to its potential. Maybe they didn't want to beef up the drivetrain enough to handle 707 HP, and that's why it's so under-tired. Or they didn't want to go through the effort of making the wheel tubs larger?

You can say they are both performance cars, but IMO the GT350 is a much more serious car as it comes from the factory. The other equipment on the car is designed to match up with the engine. It isn't just a big engine dumped into whatever existing car is available. Of course Ford could have done more (light weighting with more aluminum in the BIW comes to mind), but IMO the changes to the GT350 are very significant.

I've never driven one, but it seems to me like the HC is more for looking good than actual high performance. I realize lots of people buy GT350s or any other car more to look good than for any other reason, but the GT350 CAN perform if someone decides to use it that way.

To be fair, buyers of the Hellcat can use the factory equipment as a starting point and put the largest, stickiest tires possible (especially in the rear) on it and make it into less of a smoke generator and more a serious performance car. The engine has a lot of potential if the rest of the equipment is upgraded to match.

 

[Taneras]

I never said the Hellcat is a good handling car

Awesome, so we agree. The Hellcat isn't a good handling car.

 

[Caballus]

IMO without real rear tires and aero, the Hellcat is a cartoon car. Obviously the engineers didn't care to make it actually perform to its potential. Maybe they didn't want to beef up the drivetrain enough to handle 707 HP, and that's why it's so under-tired. Or they didn't want to go through the effort of making the wheel tubs larger?

You can say they are both performance cars, but IMO the GT350 is a much more serious car as it comes from the factory. The other equipment on the car is designed to match up with the engine. It isn't just a big engine dumped into whatever existing car is available. Of course Ford could have done more (light weighting with more aluminum in the BIW comes to mind), but IMO the changes to the GT350 are very significant.

I've never driven one, but it seems to me like the HC is more for looking good than actual high performance. I realize lots of people buy GT350s or any other car more to look good than for any other reason, but the GT350 CAN perform if someone decides to use it that way.

To be fair, buyers of the Hellcat can use the factory equipment as a starting point and put the largest, stickiest tires possible (especially in the rear) on it and make it into less of a smoke generator and more a serious performance car. The engine has a lot of potential if the rest of the equipment is upgraded to match.

Good points, Hack, and there's no way the HC can match the GT350 on the track vs. GTPP may be a different discussion. The point here, however, was the HCs ability to achieve 1.02G on the skidpad with stock (actually all season) tires. One guy at the track speculated that manufactures may actually underrate cars because of liability concerns. That was pure speculation. My deduction would be that the driver matters. Obviously, the car and it's equipment must be able to withstand it, but the guy who did it was a heck of a driver.

 

[Caballus]

Awesome, so we agree. The Hellcat isn't a good handling car.

LOL!!!

 

[Taneras]

Obviously the engineers didn't care to make it actually perform to its potential.

I bet they did, but the accountants were squeezing their wallets. They wanted this car at a certain price point. It's hard to make a 707hp car that weighs almost 4,600lbs (weight is materials, materials cost money) with a factory warranty for their 60kish price.

Dodge didn't set out to make the Hellcat the best car it could be period. It set out to make the Hellcat be the best car it can be while still making a decent profit when selling it for its 60kish price.

 

[pietran30]

The only people who think the hellcat can't take turns and is nothing but a "straight-line bruiser" have never actually driven one. Here's a great video of one where the driver (Matt Farrah) comments on the handling of it.

 

[Caballus]

The only people who think the hellcat can't take turns and is nothing but a "straight-line bruiser" have never actually driven one. Here's a great video of one where the driver (Matt Farrah) comments on the handling of it.

Great video, minus the part about "there's a Mexican in the road" Always naïve enough to think we're past that by now...Still, aside from that, awesome, particularly at the end when he points out that it's not a cornering weapon, but as a package is great...

 

[Taneras]

The only people who think the hellcat can't take turns and is nothing but a "straight-line bruiser" have never actually driven one. Here's a great video of one where the driver (Matt Farrah) comments on the handling of it.

I think people make those comments with respect to how it's handling performance compares to other cars in its class. Again, the GTPP, a car with a very mild suspension and tire package beat a car 62% more horsepower around the track.

With regards to the competition, this is a straight line car. Yes I'm sure some people thinks that it handles great, but unfortunately you're going to see more people being reluctant to call a car on the bottom half of the totem pole with regards to handling "great". To me that's below average but I don't have a degree in mathematics so I'll defer to the experts when it comes to halves and what's average.

 

[pietran30]

I think people make those comments with respect to how it's handling performance compares to other cars in its class. Again, the GTPP, a car with a very mild suspension and tire package beat a car 62% more horsepower around the track.



With regards to the competition, this is a straight line car. Yes I'm sure some people thinks that it handles great, but unfortunately you're going to see more people being reluctant to call a car on the bottom half of the totem pole with regards to handling "great". To me that's below average but I don't have a degree in mathematics so I'll defer to the experts when it comes to halves and what's average.

Very valid points. I would not buy a hellcat if I was looking for a track car. I don't think anyone is arguing that. I think that some people are under the belief that it's downright dangerous to try and track one of these 4500 lb "bruisers".

 

[Caballus]

I think people make those comments with respect to how it's handling performance compares to other cars in its class. Again, the GTPP, a car with a very mild suspension and tire package beat a car 62% more horsepower around the track.

With regards to the competition, this is a straight line car. Yes I'm sure some people thinks that it handles great, but unfortunately you're going to see more people being reluctant to call a car on the bottom half of the totem pole with regards to handling "great". To me that's below average but I don't have a degree in mathematics so I'll defer to the experts when it comes to halves and what's average.

Interesting. Never heard him make references to other cars in that class. May have missed it, but only heard him reference that car's attributes----again, may have missed it, admittedly. Also missed reference to handling great. Perhaps, I'm too literal in my interpretation. What I am super confused about is how the GTPP entered a conversation about the GT350 and HC...interesting...lol

Edit: re-watched. References the Alfa Romeo 4C...was worth rewatching and listening to

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