GM is pulling back on EVs

[sk47]

" opportunity cost of waiting for vehicles to charge at stations"- LOL. They've also accounted for a really cheap gas (of course they did).

Hello; I decided to open the second link imbedded in the article.
AEG Fueling Cost Study 2d Edition Press Release (autonews.com)

I drive a 2001 Nissan Sentra for longer trips, often 200 miles with the running around. I get around 35 MPG or so and always at least 33 MPG. So if I use 33 MPG and paid $2.99/gallon that gets me 100 miles on three gallons at a cost of $8.97 for 100 miles. That is even less than in the study for an ICE.
Last trip over 100 miles in my pickup I got 18.7 MPG. So a bit over five gallons. (5.34 gallons). At $2.99 that is $15.98. That is more expensive than the cost of the EV. Also why I use the car for longer trips unless I need to tow or haul something.
I have not calculated the cost of electricity at my home in terms of an EV. On my last electric bill, I paid $85.64 for 703 KWHs. Is that 12 cents per KWH?

Anyway in the above link there is a graph showing costs per quarter for recent years. For much of the time ICE fuel was much higher and the cost was more than for the EV much of the time. Seems to me at the time of the story the ICE was indeed slightly less cost that the EV at the far right end of the graph.
Also seems to me that if they intended to be sneaky they should have not included that pesky graph.

As for opportunity costs that will depend on what a persons time is worth. For me not much as I am retired. For a working person with places to be and things to do having to sit and wait extra time for a charge is money out of pocket. Will depend on the person it seems.

(Note how i did not need to name call or use put downs to make a point???)

Sponsored

 

[kz]

Hello; I decided to open the second link imbedded in the article.
AEG Fueling Cost Study 2d Edition Press Release (autonews.com)

So this is how this study was done - bunch of guys in a private consulting company at some point were bored and said "hey, let's do a study on EV costs vs ICE" just because. The articles got created and you could use it to stick it to woke EV fans on Mustang forum.

Yeah, no. Someone paid for it. You think it was Tesla ? Or Rivian ?

Btw - read the actual study. They posted it on their webpage (they - the consulting company). It took me about 45 seconds to find it.

 

[sk47]

So this is how this study was done - bunch of guys in a private consulting company at some point were bored and said "hey, let's do a study on EV costs vs ICE" just because. The articles got created and you could use it to stick it to woke EV fans on Mustang forum.

Yeah, no. Someone paid for it. You think it was Tesla ? Or Rivian ?

Btw - read the actual study. They posted it on their webpage (they - the consulting company). It took me about 45 seconds to find it.

Hello; Don't see useable information, just some grousing. So, no reply to your content. A thing does puzzle me a bit. That being there are any EV champions at all on this forum. I have been surprised to find a few. Also of interest, so far none have admitted to owning an EV. To each his or her own.

 

[Burkey]

Hello; I decided to open the second link imbedded in the article.
AEG Fueling Cost Study 2d Edition Press Release (autonews.com)

I drive a 2001 Nissan Sentra for longer trips, often 200 miles with the running around. I get around 35 MPG or so and always at least 33 MPG. So if I use 33 MPG and paid $2.99/gallon that gets me 100 miles on three gallons at a cost of $8.97 for 100 miles. That is even less than in the study for an ICE.
Last trip over 100 miles in my pickup I got 18.7 MPG. So a bit over five gallons. (5.34 gallons). At $2.99 that is $15.98. That is more expensive than the cost of the EV. Also why I use the car for longer trips unless I need to tow or haul something.
I have not calculated the cost of electricity at my home in terms of an EV. On my last electric bill, I paid $85.64 for 703 KWHs. Is that 12 cents per KWH?

Anyway in the above link there is a graph showing costs per quarter for recent years. For much of the time ICE fuel was much higher and the cost was more than for the EV much of the time. Seems to me at the time of the story the ICE was indeed slightly less cost that the EV at the far right end of the graph.
Also seems to me that if they intended to be sneaky they should have not included that pesky graph.

As for opportunity costs that will depend on what a persons time is worth. For me not much as I am retired. For a working person with places to be and things to do having to sit and wait extra time for a charge is money out of pocket. Will depend on the person it seems.

(Note how i did not need to name call or use put downs to make a point???)

According to several sources, A Tesla 3 consumes 1kw/h per 9k. 100 miles = 160km
Therefore, at $0.12 per Kw/h, that trip would cost $2.13 in the Tesla. Not a huge saving, but a saving regardless.
The trick here being that the Tesla offers performance on an entirely different level to either of the vehicles you’re talking about. Won’t matter to the average driver, but for people who like cars with a bit of poke, it’s a valid point.

On a separate note, your power is VERY cheap. Mine costs literally twice that after conversion from USD to AUD. Our gasoline is also vastly more expensive, sitting at $1.98 AUD per litre, which equates to $5.34 USD per gallon.

However, as I discussed much earlier, our power is dearer because that’s the cost of providing the required infrastructure and a reliable network.
We don’t get rolling blackouts or anything of the sort.
Due to my role, I can see every single customer off supply for half of our state at any given time and I can tell you that our outages are few and far between, typically being caused by: car hit pole, bird/goanna/other on transformer, customer overload (single customer outage, poor planning on their side). They aren’t the result of aging infrastructure, undersized conductors, poles falling over from age, poor connections etc.

Yes, we all complain about the cost of power, but if you REALLY want to see someone rage, turn their power off. Suddenly they seem to want to pay for it.

 

[Burkey]

Hello; Don't see useable information, just some grousing. So, no reply to your content. A thing does puzzle me a bit. That being there are any EV champions at all on this forum. I have been surprised to find a few. Also of interest, so far none have admitted to owning an EV. To each his or her own.

Define “EV champion”.
If you mean “a person who is able to see some positives in the transition to EV’s” I’ll put my hand up.
If you mean “someone who sees NO flaws in the transition to EV’s” you can take me off your list.

Thanks.

 

[AZlb5.0]

Define “EV champion”.
If you mean “a person who is able to see some positives in the transition to EV’s” I’ll put my hand up.
If you mean “someone who sees NO flaws in the transition to EV’s” you can take me off your list.

Thanks.

I really don’t think we will be able to do a complete 100% transfer till about 2050. Just by everything we have to overcome here in the US. We need to upgrade the power grid nation wide. We have been patching for decades. We have to upgrade public transport for inner cities. In cities like NYC and Chicago (grew up in Chicago) who rely deeply on rail, all rail systems has to be upgraded.

Then we go back to charging. People with homes is easy peasy. Majority of people live in apartments so how’s that going work itself out? Will there be a communal charging station or will there be one in every parking spot. What if you get laid off and live in an apartment and you fall behind on rent. Will they cut off your ability to charge? If it’s communal how will they stop people who don’t live there from charging?

There’s are a lot of things that need to be worked out and we are still pushing the can down the road.

 

[Burkey]

I really don’t think we will be able to do a complete 100% transfer till about 2050. Just by everything we have to overcome here in the US. We need to upgrade the power grid nation wide. We have been patching for decades. We have to upgrade public transport for inner cities. In cities like NYC and Chicago (grew up in Chicago) who rely deeply on rail, all rail systems has to be upgraded.

Then we go back to charging. People with homes is easy peasy. Majority of people live in apartments so how’s that going work itself out? Will there be a communal charging station or will there be one in every parking spot. What if you get laid off and live in an apartment and you fall behind on rent. Will they cut off your ability to charge? If it’s communal how will they stop people who don’t live there from charging?

There’s are a lot of things that need to be worked out and we are still pushing the can down the road.

Seems we hold similar ideas around this stuff.

I‘ve often wondered how high rise buildings with parking out on the street below might actually go about providing charging access. I’m guessing (hoping?) that in some situations the free market will sort itself out. Places that offer solutions might rapidly become the preferred provider, those that don’t might either play catch up or wither. You either provide the infrastructure people need or they shop elsewhere, as has been the case for most of history.

Back to the electrical network side of things, I should probably mention a few things:

With the high uptake rate of solar power on homes and businesses in our region, we (the distribution company) are having some issues.
The drama is that around midday particularly, but really at any time the sun is up, the PV arrays will boost the LV side of the line…which isn’t a bad thing in and of itself, except that most of the inverters will shutdown once a target voltage has been reached (typically this happens at 250V. We target 230V +/- 5% UNLOADED supply when setting the taps on the transformers).
As a consequence, we then have to lower the output of the transformer supplying the section in question. As you can imagine, that sometimes leaves the night time volts a little on the low side, not fantastic for appliances with motors…

Point being, solar arrays have created new issues that we really hadn’t anticipated. People plugging in their EV for charging during daylight hours will actually help alleviate those issues by adding load to the network, meaning we can lift those taps back up and maintain nighttime volts.

Clearly this isn’t a problem faced by all networks, but as you’d reasonably expect, each network will have its own challenges to deal with as we move forward. Some of these issues probably haven’t been thought of yet, whilst others might resolve themselves as loads shift in both patterns and volume.

It’s actually a good time to be alive if you work in the power industry. (No pun intended). Always something new to look at, something new to learn.

 

[Gregs24]

I really don’t think we will be able to do a complete 100% transfer till about 2050.

Not a hope in the US

Even in countries with firm cut off dates it will be 2050 at best before all cars on the road are not ICE (allowing for classic cars etc)

The AVERAGE age of cars in the UK is currently 10 years. 2035 ICE new car ban here, plus 10 years takes you to 2045 and at that point there would still be a substantial number of ICE cars on the road.

But yes, you do need to spend money on infrastructure now which means higher energy bills now. They are cheap for a reason in the US (not a good reason).

 

[AZlb5.0]

Seems we hold similar ideas around this stuff.

I‘ve often wondered how high rise buildings with parking out on the street below might actually go about providing charging access. I’m guessing (hoping?) that in some situations the free market will sort itself out. Places that offer solutions might rapidly become the preferred provider, those that don’t might either play catch up or wither. You either provide the infrastructure people need or they shop elsewhere, as has been the case for most of history.

Back to the electrical network side of things, I should probably mention a few things:

With the high uptake rate of solar power on homes and businesses in our region, we (the distribution company) are having some issues.
The drama is that around midday particularly, but really at any time the sun is up, the PV arrays will boost the LV side of the line…which isn’t a bad thing in and of itself, except that most of the inverters will shutdown once a target voltage has been reached (typically this happens at 250V. We target 230V +/- 5% UNLOADED supply when setting the taps on the transformers).
As a consequence, we then have to lower the output of the transformer supplying the section in question. As you can imagine, that sometimes leaves the night time volts a little on the low side, not fantastic for appliances with motors…

Point being, solar arrays have created new issues that we really hadn’t anticipated. People plugging in their EV for charging during daylight hours will actually help alleviate those issues by adding load to the network, meaning we can lift those taps back up and maintain nighttime volts.

Clearly this isn’t a problem faced by all networks, but as you’d reasonably expect, each network will have its own challenges to deal with as we move forward. Some of these issues probably haven’t been thought of yet, whilst others might resolve themselves as loads shift in both patterns and volume.

It’s actually a good time to be alive if you work in the power industry. (No pun intended). Always something new to look at, something new to learn.

That’s another thing. People think that charging at night will be good because it’s off peak hours. But if you’re charging at home at night when everyone is home at times doing laundry charging cars and cooking, then night time won’t be off peak anymore. And as you said solar brings a whole new angle to this.

I don’t foresee EVs becoming cheaper to operate, rather expense ramp up as ICE vehicles become obsolete. When you have 0 options it’s when things get expensive.

 

[Burkey]

That’s another thing. People think that charging at night will be good because it’s off peak hours. But if you’re charging at home at night when everyone is home at times doing laundry charging cars and cooking, then night time won’t be off peak anymore. And as you said solar brings a whole new angle to this.

I don’t foresee EVs becoming cheaper to operate, rather expense ramp up as ICE vehicles become obsolete. When you have 0 options it’s when things get expensive.

There’s more than a couple of factors at play here and I can’t honestly predict which way it will all go BUT….
Given that off-peak was first introduced as a means of encouraging people to spread their consumption over the course of a day, it seems that the concept of what constitutes off-peak times might even shift. Or, that off-peak may become redundant entirely, replaced by a new single-rate that averages the costs.
Clearly this would vary by network based on how the network sees the loads being consumed.

I’m not sure of how your generation and distribution works in the US but over here, some states are privatised while others remain government run and some even use a hybrid system. Complex at best.

Using the example of the privatised system, we already know that solar produces cheaper power than traditional methods. It’s possible that those massive solar farms will eventually be allowed to compete against each other, selling their power to retailers who are operating in a competitive market. Currently, the energy regulator sets the pricing for those farms. The farms are typically set up so that they are able to hit their peak allowable input from very early in the day (giving shareholders their maximum ROI) and deliberately restricting the input as the sun rises (Back to that rising voltage thing again) Eg. They COULD produce more power IF there was more load attached at the other end of the system, but the loads don’t exist yet…and battery storage isn’t viable in the current market, although that’s likely to change also.
In THAT example, we would expect to see prices falling drastically (More supply than demand, combined with being able to supply even more power than they currently do for absolutely zero extra input cost).

YMMV depending on the situation.
What is abundantly clear is that it’s incredibly difficult to predict the future when there’s so many balls in the air so to speak. In a perfectly free market, power should become cheaper, it’s by how much that’s up for debate. But again, does a perfectly free market exist? Some form of regulation has to exist. You can’t just have everyone doing their own thing, feeding whatever they want back into the system whenever they want. It just doesn’t work like that. It simply cannot.

Interesting times. I can’t speak for you guys but I’m sure my government will make a mess of it several different ways before accidentally stumbling on better options.

 

[AZlb5.0]

Interesting times. I can’t speak for you guys but I’m sure my government will make a mess of it several different ways before accidentally stumbling on better options.

One of the best statements in this 30 page thread.

 

[Burkey]

I have no idea how practical or cost-effective this one might be, but IF it’s capable of doing what seems to be claimed, this could well reduce the drain on the grid substantially (Because a refrigerated AC is less efficient in cooling mode than heating - basic physics) those EV’s have one less issue ahead of them.

The idea of cooling a refrigerated AC condenser isn’t new by any means. Typically it’s done with a total loss water misting system. The main drawback being premature condenser failure from corrosion….

This tech seems to have a number of potential uses.

 

[AZlb5.0]

I have no idea how practical or cost-effective this one might be, but IF it’s capable of doing what seems to be claimed, this could well reduce the drain on the grid substantially (Because a refrigerated AC is less efficient in cooling mode than heating - basic physics) those EV’s have one less issue ahead of them.

The idea of cooling a refrigerated AC condenser isn’t new by any means. Typically it’s done with a total loss water misting system. The main drawback being premature condenser failure from corrosion….

This tech seems to have a number of potential uses.

Interesting I wonder how this will play out IRL. Because sometimes in a grand scale, because many times things that work in a small scale don’t transfer over well.

 

[Burkey]

Interesting I wonder how this will play out IRL. Because sometimes in a grand scale, because many times things that work in a small scale don’t transfer over well.

100%
It may well turn out that the practical uses are limited.
I just like the way that new ideas are forming regularly. Some of them might be utterly impractical but they might also allow others to leverage better ideas off the one that came before. A game of leapfrog in a way.

New tech continually seems to have a way of creating new tech.

 

[Burkey]

Seems that my device must be listening to me. Opened YT and this was the first thing that popped up.
Again, we’re discussing POSSIBLE technologies.
More importantly, we’re looking at technologies that were simply IMPOSSIBLE only a few decades ago.

I remember when I started my electrical apprenticeship, you’d see cords all over the job site, battery tools had a small uptake because with their 7.2v Ni-Cad batteries……they sucked. The only advantage they offered was not having to run a lead out. Underpowered, took forever to charge, required discharging to avoid memory issues etc.

Nowadays there’s no issue with recharge times, battery life is immense, torque is great, no battery memory and you won’t find people running an extension cord unless they absolutely have to. We’ve even ditched hydraulic tools in favour battery operated gear.
That‘s two decades of change.

I wonder what the next two might bring?

Sponsored