GM is pulling back on EVs

[sk47]

I have no idea how practical or cost-effective this one might be, but IF it’s capable of doing what seems to be claimed, this could well reduce the drain on the grid substantially (Because a refrigerated AC is less efficient in cooling mode than heating - basic physics) those EV’s have one less issue ahead of them.

The idea of cooling a refrigerated AC condenser isn’t new by any means. Typically it’s done with a total loss water misting system. The main drawback being premature condenser failure from corrosion….

This tech seems to have a number of potential uses.

Hello; Before I dig into the video let me tell a story. One of the large schools in a county used water -air-evaporation cooling decades ago. I use to park my school bus there after I got the last students home. I ran around the campus. In back of the building was a rectangular tower made of wood slats in a metal frame. The racks of slats were angled just off horizontal so they tilted to the inside of the tower. Water was pumped to the top of the tower and allowed to percolate down across the surface of the racks of slats. The tower was maybe 30 feet tall and maybe eight to ten feet on a side. I could hear the water dripping off the racks of slats. That system cooled the school. Had to use up a lot of water as it was the evaporative cooling of the water which made it work. This was maybe 30 to 40 years ago at least.

To the video. I knew of aerogel for a while. It is as the video stated going to be expensive to produce. It also is made from plastics (fossil fuel base) if that matters.
The key thing which caught my ear was at minute 7:17 of the video. The guy stated that during the evaporative process the heat was changed into Infared heat radiation which radiates off into space.
Not so fast. This does not make sense to me. Here is how the greenhouse effect works. Solar radiation (light) enters our atmosphere and passes thru easily as it is of very short wavelengths.
Once the short wavelength light is absorbed by surfaces or other materials some is reflected off as some color. Green light for example is not useful to most plants so the green wavelengths are reflected and the other colors absorbed. The absorbed wavelengths, some anyway, become changed into heat. Heat radiation is made of much longer wavelengths and is called Infared.
The green house trick and hence the name is while glass is transparent to light, the glass is not so transparent to infared ( heat) radiation. So once inside a greenhouse (Also think car interior) it is largely trapped. Same for our atmosphere. Light (shortwave) passes through the air but heat (Infared) is trapped.

So my question is how hoe can the Infared from this cooler pass into space when other greenhouse heat does not. I am not saying the cooler unit will not work and do figure it will. I just do not buy his contention that his cooling units heat will go into space.
The equipment may be an advantage in that it does not consume electric power so does save in that way.

One more example. In hot areas a water bag would be tired to the outside of jeeps. The bags had a canvas outer lining. Wet the canvas and while driving evaporative cooling would cool down the water inside. Cooling effect is some limited.

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[Gregs24]

So many opinions are of the 'it can't happen, it won't happen, I won't do it' brigade but all of their assumptions are based on todays technology. 10 years is a long time in R&D never mind 20 or 30.

Re peak and off peak - once you have enough BEV attached to the grid with smart chargers you have a huge 'store' of electricity that can be used to even out supply. EV's all have the ability to set departure times (although not a requirement) and if used the car needs to be fully charged by 'n' time it doesn't matter what happens in between. So you can charge and discharge the battery in the interim as required by the grid. Yet another part of the jigsaw.

 

[sk47]

So many opinions are of the 'it can't happen, it won't happen, I won't do it' brigade but all of their assumptions are based on todays technology. 10 years is a long time in R&D never mind 20 or 30.

Re peak and off peak - once you have enough BEV attached to the grid with smart chargers you have a huge 'store' of electricity that can be used to even out supply. EV's all have the ability to set departure times (although not a requirement) and if used the car needs to be fully charged by 'n' time it doesn't matter what happens in between. So you can charge and discharge the battery in the interim as required by the grid. Yet another part of the jigsaw.

Hello; Another someday off in the future everything will be worked out. Before I am accused of saying the same old thing let me admit it is the same argument. Decisions are being made today based on green situations which do not yet exist. Dismantling a working transportation system at the same time.
Perhaps worse may be the agenda on parts of our food supply. Specifically, cattle I am thinking of but I do not figure those activists will stop at that. I see proposals to grant animals near human rights.
In Knox County TN a few days ago an ordnance passed requiring a dog owner be present outside with a chained dog. I have not read the actual wording of this and am going by the TV news reports. Essentially several sets of circumstance are prescribed. Length of chain, type of shelter/shade, access to water which are not too much. The kicker is the dogs my not be left outside alone very long. No chaining a dog to a tree and going off to work. A large local shelter was against this saying it will affect the poor and renters. Something not reported but my guess is a lot of folks will get rid of dogs if this is enforced.
Point being is I understand the emotion behind this ordinance. Seeing a dog chained up day after day with miserable conditions tugs at the heart. So, an agenda gets put into place about it. Thing is a lot of dogs will wind up in kill shelters after owners get some fines.
I see this save the climate+ green energy+ EV agenda in somewhat the same way. I understand the basic emotion driving the agenda but also see the consequences very much likely to follow.
I saw earlier in the fall where some places in Europe where forests are being cut down for firewood. A reaction to the Russia war in part perhaps. I figure the same sort of thing will happen after fossil fuel energy is shut down and the "green energy" does not meet the load.

 

[Burkey]

Hello; Before I dig into the video let me tell a story. One of the large schools in a county used water -air-evaporation cooling decades ago. I use to park my school bus there after I got the last students home. I ran around the campus. In back of the building was a rectangular tower made of wood slats in a metal frame. The racks of slats were angled just off horizontal so they tilted to the inside of the tower. Water was pumped to the top of the tower and allowed to percolate down across the surface of the racks of slats. The tower was maybe 30 feet tall and maybe eight to ten feet on a side. I could hear the water dripping off the racks of slats. That system cooled the school. Had to use up a lot of water as it was the evaporative cooling of the water which made it work. This was maybe 30 to 40 years ago at least.

To the video. I knew of aerogel for a while. It is as the video stated going to be expensive to produce. It also is made from plastics (fossil fuel base) if that matters.
The key thing which caught my ear was at minute 7:17 of the video. The guy stated that during the evaporative process the heat was changed into Infared heat radiation which radiates off into space.
Not so fast. This does not make sense to me. Here is how the greenhouse effect works. Solar radiation (light) enters our atmosphere and passes thru easily as it is of very short wavelengths.
Once the short wavelength light is absorbed by surfaces or other materials some is reflected off as some color. Green light for example is not useful to most plants so the green wavelengths are reflected and the other colors absorbed. The absorbed wavelengths, some anyway, become changed into heat. Heat radiation is made of much longer wavelengths and is called Infared.
The green house trick and hence the name is while glass is transparent to light, the glass is not so transparent to infared ( heat) radiation. So once inside a greenhouse (Also think car interior) it is largely trapped. Same for our atmosphere. Light (shortwave) passes through the air but heat (Infared) is trapped.

So my question is how hoe can the Infared from this cooler pass into space when other greenhouse heat does not. I am not saying the cooler unit will not work and do figure it will. I just do not buy his contention that his cooling units heat will go into space.
The equipment may be an advantage in that it does not consume electric power so does save in that way.

One more example. In hot areas a water bag would be tired to the outside of jeeps. The bags had a canvas outer lining. Wet the canvas and while driving evaporative cooling would cool down the water inside. Cooling effect is some limited.

Where I live, evaporative AC’s are a bare minimum. People have been using them for as long as I’ve been alive. More recently people have predominantly been installing refrigerated units. The reasoning is that an evap AC doesn’t do so well on humid days (which we’re seeing more of) and that you’d still need a source of heat in winter. For reasons that make no sense to me, our natural gas in the this area is more than double the price of anywhere else in the state.
So, solar power and simplicity has pushed people toward refrigerated units that chew electricity. The less “affluent” make do with evaporative cooling and whatever appeals to them for heating. YMMV.

Now to try and answer your question re heat escaping into space. I’m finding this one hard because a) I’m not sure that the presenter represented the point succinctly (he may have entirely misrepresented the situation) b) I’m not sure that the question you’re asking is properly worded and c) based on the way you’ve asked the question, I’m not sure that your understanding of the greenhouse effect is sound or that you realise that heat is frequently passing into space all the time. No, I’m not saying that to be snarky. It just stems from the way the question is worded.

In an attempt to explain what the presenter MIGHT have meant, I‘m going to say that perhaps it has to do with the specific wavelength of the radiation being emitted (But I can’t honestly say that this is the correct answer). We know that water vapour is more potent than carbon dioxide, but, the part most people seem to miss is that WV covers a very narrow wavelength band (Mainly 18- 30 micrometer) whereas carbon dioxide covers primarily the 8-18 micrometer band.
Clearly SOME long-wave radiation is able to escape our atmosphere This should be pretty obvious without even looking at the specifics of GHG absorption wavelengths.

So, without going back to school, I’d suggest that the answer probably lies in the specific wavelength of the heat being emitted. Perhaps he meant the bulk of the rejected heat, rather than the entirety? This is the problem of such a presentation. They dumb it down enough for the average punter to get a basic understanding but leave questions unanswered for those who want something deeper.

It’s a good question though and it made me question my recollection of the subject. Now I need to do my research

If anyone has a better answer (or if I’m totally wrong) please feel free to offer the corrections as required. This one‘s well outside my area of expertise.

In the meantime, I’ll leave this here:

“Note that there is a “window” in the water vapor spectrum from about 8 to 15 μm where there is little IR absorption and hence little contribution to atmospheric warming. The strong absorption by CO2at the long wavelength end of this region narrows this window a bit and adds to the warming effect. Radiation from the Earth that is in this window region passes through the atmosphere with little absorption and contributes little to atmospheric warming. Other gases that absorb in this window region or in other narrower window regions of the thermal IR (where water vapor and CO2 do not absorb appreciably) can make significant relative contributions to atmospheric warming by absorbing energy that would otherwise be lost to space.”

Which came from this:
https://www.acs.org/climatescience/greenhousegases/properties.html

 

[sk47]

Now to try and answer your question re heat escaping into space. I’m finding this one hard because a) I’m not sure that the presenter represented the point succinctly (he may have entirely misrepresented the situation) b) I’m not sure that the question you’re asking is properly worded and c) based on the way you’ve asked the question, I’m not sure that your understanding of the greenhouse effect is sound or that you realise that heat is frequently passing into space all the time. No, I’m not saying that to be snarky. It just stems from the way the question is worded.

Hello; Of course, you are being snarky and worse, but such is expected. You have made other such comments of disrespect.
Gotta love how you try to minimize the presenters mistake and also try to put me down. Thing is I did not write everything I know or understand and do leave some details out. My posts are long enough as they are. Yes, heat/energy is lost to space all the time just as solar energy is gained all the time. Having an atmosphere mitigates extreme high and low temps.
The airless moon has high surface temps for objects in direct sunlight while a few feet away an object in shadow can be very cold.
Earth has an atmosphere which Trapps enough heat to make the surface livable. Ironic how a natural process (Greenhouse effect) has become so maligned of late when it makes our lives possible.
Perhaps a good enough example is how cloud cover can mitigate some heat loss at night compared to a clear night. Even when cloud cover stops some heat loss it still get cooler during cloudy nights.

 

[Burkey]

So many opinions are of the 'it can't happen, it won't happen, I won't do it' brigade but all of their assumptions are based on todays technology. 10 years is a long time in R&D never mind 20 or 30.

Re peak and off peak - once you have enough BEV attached to the grid with smart chargers you have a huge 'store' of electricity that can be used to even out supply. EV's all have the ability to set departure times (although not a requirement) and if used the car needs to be fully charged by 'n' time it doesn't matter what happens in between. So you can charge and discharge the battery in the interim as required by the grid. Yet another part of the jigsaw.

I’m not sure where the metering technology is at in the UK or the US but on my network, we run what we refer to as ”smart meters”. The idea is that the meters are “meshed”, meaning they communicate with one another and report back to base. They used to report at half hour intervals, but we’re in the process of swapping them out for meters that report every 5 minutes….

Point being, leveraging off that technology, it’s opened the door for a few opportunities. There was discussion at one point (not sure if it’s progressing or dead on the table) surrounding the option of opening the electricity supply side pricing completely. Meaning, that a person who is generating power back into the grid can store it and release it when the price is high (pricing changing by the minute). Obviously you then need a system that allows real-time tracking of the commodity price along with a battery to store it and a few other bits and pieces to complete the puzzle.

From where I sit it look like a disaster waiting to happen.
1,000’s of meters all sitting there, waiting anxiously for the price to hit “x” and then all of them trying to release at the trigger point, shifting the load, changing the price etc.
Maybe they can make it work? Maybe they killed it dead?

The primary advantage of the smart meter to the distribution company is that we often know your power is off before you do. On top of that, rather than waiting for individual customers to report an issue, we can se the extent of the problem, allowing us to more accurately pinpoint the likely course of the problem Eg. less time off supply, being able to prepare appropriate equipment prior to arriving on site etc etc.

Again, it’s an example of technology leading to new and unexpected developments.

 

[Burkey]

Of course, you are being snarky and worse, but such is expected.

Or, is it simply the case that you’re trying to play the victim again? If someone asks me “What colour does the number seven taste like?” It’s kinda hard to answer the question. Your question wasn’t that ridiculous of course, but the way you worded it left me wondering exactly how much of this required explanation. Eg.. what is YOUR existing understanding? How do I adequately respond without treating you like a child? I was TRYING to be charitable.

Gotta love how you try to minimize the presenters mistake and also try to put me down.

I’m not sure that the presenter even made a mistake. I said it was POSSIBLE that he made a mistake. If you wish to assert that his claim is impossible, please provide the evidence of such. I’m sitting in the middle here. I don‘t know if he’s right or wrong. I simply came up with a POTENTIAL explanation, which, as stated earlier, could be entirely wrong. IF YOU KNOW BETTER, PLEASE EXPLAIN IT. this is your opportunity to stop playing victim and move toward educator.

Ironic how a natural process (Greenhouse effect) has become so maligned of late when it makes our lives possible.

No, the irony is that someone who accepts the premise that GHG’s do in fact help the earth retain heat, isn’t able to make the connection that adding more of ONE of those GHG’s (which then liberates more methane and WV), might somehow increase the temperature of the Earth.
The evidence is there. The theory makes predictions and those predictions keep working time and time again.

What predictive power does your theory have?

 

[K4fxd]

once you have enough BEV attached to the grid with smart chargers you have a huge 'store' of electricity that can be used to even out supply.

Lets see how this works when you need to get to the hospital and find your car battery at 40% because the grid needed juice instead of charging your car.

 

[sk47]

Hello; Apparently I have two smart or semi smart electric meters at my home. Soon after i moved in 12 years + ago a new meter was installed outside. No one has to come by and read the meter is one function the meter replaces. I do not know about other functions.
The second meter is in the basement near the water heater (WH). The only function I am sure of is that it can shut off the power to the WH from time to time.
My area had rolling blackouts during the arctic cold spell around Christmas. Not sure how that was actually done. My power was off one day for maybe 30 to 60 minutes (EDIT -that i know of when awake). I do not know if it was house to house or by larger sections of the grid. It was between 0 and 4 degrees F at the time. I had secondary heat so was ok. In fact my heat pump did not kick on during those several days so i helped the overall grid as only a TV, some lights, a refrigerator and pumps on my aquariums were running. My aquariums are in the same room with the secondary heat so the heaters did not have to turn on.

 

[Burkey]

Hello; Apparently I have two smart or semi smart electric meters at my home. Soon after i moved in 12 years + ago a new meter was installed outside. No one has to come by and read the meter is one function the meter replaces. I do not know about other functions.
The second meter is in the basement near the water heater (WH). The only function I am sure of is that it can shut off the power to the WH from time to time.
My area had rolling blackouts during the arctic cold spell around Christmas. Not sure how that was actually done. My power was off one day for maybe 30 to 60 minutes (EDIT -that i know of when awake). I do not know if it was house to house or by larger sections of the grid. It was between 0 and 4 degrees F at the time. I had secondary heat so was ok. In fact my heat pump did not kick on during those several days so i helped the overall grid as only a TV, some lights, a refrigerator and pumps on my aquariums were running. My aquariums are in the same room with the secondary heat so the heaters did not have to turn on.

It’s possible that they might be using the meters for rolling blackouts. It really depends on the construction of the contractor inside the meter. Ours aren’t engineered to offer reliable closure whilst under load. Yours might be.

I can’t comment on what other functions they are capable of providing to you without having a thorough understanding of your earthing system or the specifics of the meters in use. With the system we use, one example is that the meters are able to detect situations where the customer might be in danger of receiving electric shock from their taps or other exposed metalwork in and around their home. Usually this is just a tingle but occasionally it can be more serious. Much more serious.

Yes, potentially lifesaving technology. We attend several. of these per week. Most aren’t a real problem, some could kill someone under the right circumstances. These meters have most likely saved lives. Not the original intended function, but a function that they gained after the fact.

 

[K4fxd]

Duke energy wanted me to put a "smart" switch on my A/C unit. I told them to pound sand. I pay the bill to have a comfortable house. When they start rolling blackouts I will buy a gas powered generator.

 

[Burkey]

Duke energy wanted me to put a "smart" switch on my A/C unit. I told them to pound sand. I pay the bill to have a comfortable house. When they start rolling blackouts I will buy a gas powered generator.

I’d probably have done the same. Are these rolling blackouts a common feature in the US?

 

[GT 550]

No, I’m not saying that to be snarky

Of course, you are being snarky

Nope. Exceedingy low levels of snark detected in that post, Captain.

 

[sk47]

Electrify America Chargers Frying EVs Raises Concerns About Culpability (msn.com)

Hello; Did not see this one coming at all. Kind of a surprise to me. For some reason I figured the charge circuits would have safety features built in the cars themselves. With the cost of a replacement battery someone is out of pocket a lot. Ought to be the Electrify America is my take.

Why the plug cannot be removed?? I have a guess. Lots of energy involved in a fast charger. Trying to get the energy into the battery in a hurry may be the basic part of the problem. My unsupported WAG is the contacts welded to each other enough to fuse the plug.

 

[sk47]

Cash-strapped EV startup Arrival is laying off half its workforce (msn.com)
Hello; Not sure if this is significant. Guess it could be a single company's problem or an industry wide problem???

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