GM is pulling back on EVs

[Burkey]

Hello; Fascinating. You write several lines explaining how no BEV exists in your area that can meet your needs. I read and understand just what you mean. Some level of such things you call "inconvenience" problems exist for most of us with BEV's. That is even before the extra expense is added in.

Then you make a statement hard to understand. That somehow "mandates" would have fixed the issues. Of course, Ford can choose to ignore a segment of the buying public. They do it already. I want a small sedan. In fact, the Ford Focus was a car I looked to buy. I passed on the Focus ST because i did not want a turbo engine. I looked for a Focus SE with a manual trans. They made a package with disc brakes front and rear. I missed the last of those. Now the Mustang is the only non-SUV they make any more, I think.

One of the characteristics of someone who truly believes in the dire prospects of "climate change" and also believes that "green energy" and BEV's are the ways to save the planet is they will make the sacrifices needed. Of course, so far, you do not have to make the sacrifice as the restrictive mandates are not yet in place.
When the mandates and other restrictions are truly in place there will be many others who need a vehicle type which no BEV can match. They will not have an option.

But you keep on trying to justify the purchase of an ICE while at the same time preaching "green & BEV" mantras. I can admire someone who sticks to a creed/belief even when I disagree with that creed/belief. I recall the monks in southeast Asia immolating themselves with gasoline to protest. I thought it was an absurd thing to do, but I grudgingly had to admire that they walked the walk of what they believed. I get it though. Standing up for your green & EV beliefs would have been inconvenient.

Enjoy the ICE.

The point I was making, was that Ford (as an example) already produce the car we want (in terms of the configuration) but not with our preferred motive power.
IF they wish to continue selling vehicles in THAT market segment, they will (presumably) offer the Everest (or equivalent) in an EV variant once the mandates are in place. Or not. They need to decide if the segment is worthwhile. Currently it is.
They dropped sedans due to poor sales. That’s the market dictating demand. Something you seemingly agree with.
If they choose to drop the Everest, that’s fine too. Another manufacturer might grab that market share.

Make the vehicle we want available and we will buy it, just like you and your sedan.

The ICE hasn’t arrived yet btw. It’s a 12 -15 month waiting list. I would suggest that this might indicate the demand for the vehicle type, maybe. We can cancel at any time until build commences. Maybe something might reach the market while we wait?

Who knows? What I can say is that if a better option hits the market, we’ll be going that way.

Sponsored

 

[martinjlm]

Hello; Fascinating. You write several lines explaining how no BEV exists in your area that can meet your needs. I read and understand just what you mean. Some level of such things you call "inconvenience" problems exist for most of us with BEV's. That is even before the extra expense is added in.

Then you make a statement hard to understand. That somehow "mandates" would have fixed the issues. Of course, Ford can choose to ignore a segment of the buying public. They do it already. I want a small sedan. In fact, the Ford Focus was a car I looked to buy. I passed on the Focus ST because i did not want a turbo engine. I looked for a Focus SE with a manual trans. They made a package with disc brakes front and rear. I missed the last of those. Now the Mustang is the only non-SUV they make any more, I think.

One of the characteristics of someone who truly believes in the dire prospects of "climate change" and also believes that "green energy" and BEV's are the ways to save the planet is they will make the sacrifices needed. Of course, so far, you do not have to make the sacrifice as the restrictive mandates are not yet in place.

When the mandates and other restrictions are truly in place there will be many others who need a vehicle type which no BEV can match. They will not have an option.

But you keep on trying to justify the purchase of an ICE while at the same time preaching "green & BEV" mantras. I can admire someone who sticks to a creed/belief even when I disagree with that creed/belief. I recall the monks in southeast Asia immolating themselves with gasoline to protest. I thought it was an absurd thing to do, but I grudgingly had to admire that they walked the walk of what they believed. I get it though. Standing up for your green & EV beliefs would have been inconvenient.

Enjoy the ICE.

Just wondering what makes you think this part is true. From what I see, BEV will be offered in every range of vehicle from mini segment commuter car up to Class 8 semi tractor. Examples of both of those and most vehicle types in between are already on the market. BEV will also be available in coupe, sedan, cross-over, SUV, and pickup body styles. There are BEVs designed for off-roading. Some available now,, some still on the way. By 2035 there should be BEV examples of pretty much every vehicle type of vehicle available. Examples of all except coupe are in the market now and there is evidence of coupes coming soon.

What range of vehicle do you think cannot or will not be represented by BEV?

 

[sk47]

Just wondering what makes you think this part is true. From what I see, BEV will be offered in every range of vehicle from mini segment commuter car up to Class 8 semi tractor. Examples of both of those and most vehicle types in between are already on the market. BEV will also be available in coupe, sedan, cross-over, SUV, and pickup body styles. There are BEVs designed for off-roading. Some available now,, some still on the way. By 2035 there should be BEV examples of pretty much every vehicle type of vehicle available. Examples of all except coupe are in the market now and there is evidence of coupes coming soon.

What range of vehicle do you think cannot or will not be represented by BEV?

Hello; This is rich. Go back and read the exchanges between Burkey and myself of late. He lays out a primary case for having to buy an ICE because no BEV fits.
Yesterday (Saturday) a friend made a trip From Lexington KY to the Great Smoky Mountains national park and then back to Harlan County KY. He picked me up near Harrogate TN and we then went to Townsend TN to attend the Annual Blount County British Car Show. Something we have attended every spring for maybe 20 years. He will eventually drive back to Lexington KY after dropping me off at my home. A trip of around 500 miles, maybe more, since he drove thru the park to Gatlinburg TN as well. A thing is we did not have to make aside trip to find a charger nor wait around for the charge to happen. Pretty sure no BEV could have made that trip on a charge.
I can buy one of the BEV pickups for over $70K and maybe tow less than 100 miles. So far as i know the over the road big rigs are local use only, not across states. But I get what you drive at. Big rig tractors do exist. BEV pickups do exist. BEV's do have all wheel drive. Perhaps a comparison might be that of a toddler and an adult person. The toddler is for sure a human but lacks the capacity of an adult. The BEV's are in a way toddlers in the vehicle world. Just as a toddler can do well in the backyard, so can most BEV's are ok if you do not need to go very far. Taking a road trip with a toddler might also sort of be like in an BEV. Lots of extra-long stops with built in anxiety.
I get it. You need to polish the image using words. Polish away but it will not change the nature of BEV's. On top of the many other issues around BEV's there is starting to be an attitude they will be like an appliance to be tossed away when they have problems. Maybe like an older computer or cell phone simply because of newer tech. Maybe because the cost to repair the complicated tech will doom the BEV to scrap even if most of the vehicle is still sound.

Here is a thought. Why not have the BEV engineers work out the issues BEFORE they are mandated to be the transport system all our lives depend on? Let us have BEV big riggs carrying food thousands of miles every day from farms to processing plants to grocery stores day after day. Same for other commercial vehicles. Personal transport is less critical for our survival, but even that portion is flawed.

 

[sk47]

Hello; The bottom line in this debate is about EV's and green energy falls around the way both the vehicles and the anti-fossil fuel agenda is being pushed onto a public not accepting of them and a grid not ready for them.
I get the panic generated by the doomsday sayers over the climate problems due in 50 or 100 years. This is a topic worthy of it's own discussion which i have been involved with on this site myself. Thing is whether the carbon scare has merit or not neither the BEV's nor the electric grid are ready for the change being too quickly forced onto us.
I concede the grid can be made better if enough money can be found to cover the large cost. I do not agree the grid can be fixed up in any short-term time frame. It will take several decades to do and did I mention will be super expensive. Guess the cost could also be a discussion of it's own.

As far as the BEV issues being fixed, I do not have a good guess. Lots of speculation/dreams about how the issues will get better. Near as i can tell this is based on hopes and dreams. I see every few weeks some touted promising discovery by some research group that will be potentially game changing. I get this also. IF a series of game changing discoveries or refinements do come along the BEV platforms could be legit. Still a big IF for now. I was reading Popular Science & Popular Mechanics back in the 1960's. Every issue seemed to have some promising new advancement. Many were just ten years away. Most never made the cut. So, the promise of a better BEV is still only a promise right now.

 

[martinjlm]

Hello; This is rich. Go back and read the exchanges between Burkey and myself of late. He lays out a primary case for having to buy an ICE because no BEV fits.
Yesterday (Saturday) a friend made a trip From Lexington KY to the Great Smoky Mountains national park and then back to Harlan County KY. He picked me up near Harrogate TN and we then went to Townsend TN to attend the Annual Blount County British Car Show. Something we have attended every spring for maybe 20 years. He will eventually drive back to Lexington KY after dropping me off at my home. A trip of around 500 miles, maybe more, since he drove thru the park to Gatlinburg TN as well. A thing is we did not have to make aside trip to find a charger nor wait around for the charge to happen. Pretty sure no BEV could have made that trip on a charge.
I can buy one of the BEV pickups for over $70K and maybe tow less than 100 miles. So far as i know the over the road big rigs are local use only, not across states. But I get what you drive at. Big rig tractors do exist. BEV pickups do exist. BEV's do have all wheel drive. Perhaps a comparison might be that of a toddler and an adult person. The toddler is for sure a human but lacks the capacity of an adult. The BEV's are in a way toddlers in the vehicle world. Just as a toddler can do well in the backyard, so can most BEV's are ok if you do not need to go very far. Taking a road trip with a toddler might also sort of be like in an BEV. Lots of extra-long stops with built in anxiety.
I get it. You need to polish the image using words. Polish away but it will not change the nature of BEV's. On top of the many other issues around BEV's there is starting to be an attitude they will be like an appliance to be tossed away when they have problems. Maybe like an older computer or cell phone simply because of newer tech. Maybe because the cost to repair the complicated tech will doom the BEV to scrap even if most of the vehicle is still sound.

Here is a thought. Why not have the BEV engineers work out the issues BEFORE they are mandated to be the transport system all our lives depend on? Let us have BEV big riggs carrying food thousands of miles every day from farms to processing plants to grocery stores day after day. Same for other commercial vehicles. Personal transport is less critical for our survival, but even that portion is flawed.

Interesting travel story. I have a travel story of my own. Drove 300 miles east on Friday. I had a time constraint and got mixed up in construction traffic so once beyond the traffic I had to “make up time”. I think we all know what that means . When I got to my destination I had 61 miles of range left and my trip data indicated I averaged 19.8 miles per gallon. Traveling back west today I had no time constraints. I let the top down and cruised between 75-80 mph most of the way. When I got home I had 152 miles of range left and averaged 24.4 mpg. What’s the point? Gasoline engines show a significant drop off in fuel economy when driven fast. Just like EVs.

Now, what you and I have both done is described very specific use cases. Anyone who buys a vehicle should tailor their purchase to fit their fundamental use cases. If someone’s fundamental use case is similar to the one you described, they probably should not buy an EV. But if that’s something they do once in a blue moon they would be fine with buying a BEV and renting an ICE vehicle for the “once in a blue moon” trips. It’s what I do when I need a pickup. I didn’t buy the car I drove this weekend for frequent 300 mile trips, but it’s capable of doing them so I drove it. If it was a BEV and I had to make the same 300 mile trip, I would still have taken it because any of the BEVs that I have an interest in buying can do that just fine.

On my trip I noticed a high volume of Teslas on the highway. In fact, on the way home I was seeing so many that during a random 15 minute part of the drive I counted how many Teslas I saw in that 15 minutes. Eleven. About an hour later I repeated my 15 minute count. Eight. This is on the main highway in Ontario, Canada where speeds are typically in the 75-90 mph range. They didn’t seem to be concerned enough about range to slow down at all. They probably felt that they had enough range to get wherever they were going with sufficient margin.

As far as Class 8 semi’s, the coverage area depends on which company has specced and purchased them and is more of an issue of total range. Class 8 BEV semis vary in range from about 220 miles to 500 miles. This is, of course, dependent upon how much load the semi is carrying.

PepsiCo bought the first Tesla semis. Chances are they will be tasked to transport soda and potato chips (PepsiCo owns Frito Lay). With that type of product they can fill the cubic foot volume of the trailer before getting anywhere near the weight limits, so they can probably go a pretty good distance (500 mile range) on a full charge with a full load of product. And then they can recover about 70% of their full charge in 30 minutes. About the amount of time it takes to unload. So yes, Class 8 BEV semis can operate interstate. I wouldn’t try that with a load of coil steel, though. Mileage would be greatly reduced in that scenario. I should also point out that Pilot / Flying J is installing commercial vehicle grade EV chargers at many of their interstate truck centers. Pilot / Flying J is the country’s biggest truck stop operator.

By the way, you didn’t answer my question. I sorta doubt you will answer it directly, but I’ll ask again anyway. Others can also feel free to offer their viewpoints on this as well.

The question was
What range of vehicle do you think cannot or will not be represented by BEV?

 

[sk47]

The question was
What range of vehicle do you think cannot or will not be represented by BEV?

Hello; Question answered. You just want to spin the facts so they better fit your preferred narrative. Nice try-won't fly.
About your trip. You left out the charging time added to the trip. Charging is implied since you had 61 miles left with a 300 mile return. My guess is you stayed overnight somewhere and i imagine in your mind the charging time does not count.
I will be impressed if you do the same trip my friend did on Saturday in the same way with your BEV. That was part of the answer. What a typical ICE can do day after day I do not think BEVs can do at all.
Even in your response about the over the road tractors you make my point. 220 to 500 miles range. That is not over the road hauling miles which was my point. Bet the tractor with 500 mile range has extra batteries which both cost more and also reduce payload. I also did not miss the bit about range depends on the load weight.

I keep a pickup to do work around my place and to tow my boat. Renting a truck from time to time is not a substitute for having one that can actually do truck stuff.

 

[K4fxd]

https://www.yahoo.com/news/meet-ev-demand-industry-turns-201135755.html

But the sprawling facility, bordered on one side by forest and on the other by blue seas, faces a major challenge: what to do with the roughly 4 million metric tons of toxic waste produced every year - enough, approximately, to fill 1,667 Olympic-size swimming pools.

In 2020, the companies behind the project told the government they had a solution: They would pump the waste into the ocean.

And as global demand for nickel surges, company executives and Indonesian government leaders are turning to a refining technology long considered too risky to embrace, too perilous for the environment and for local communities.

Despite official pledges to reduce carbon emissions, the government has approved the construction of coal-fired power plants specifically to support the processing of nickel for the EV industry.

Green energy, really?

 

[martinjlm]

Hello; Question answered. You just want to spin the facts so they better fit your preferred narrative. Nice try-won't fly.
About your trip. You left out the charging time added to the trip. Charging is implied since you had 61 miles left with a 300 mile return. My guess is you stayed overnight somewhere and i imagine in your mind the charging time does not count.

You did not answer the question. Is it coupes? Is it convertibles? Is it sedans? Is it box trucks? Is it sports cars? Is it muscle cars? Is it vans? Is it chassis cabs? Is it buses? We already know that it’s not semis since I already described how that works. What type of vehicles will not work as EVs? Third time asking. Guessing you don’t have an answer.

As for my trip, did you not see that I described my miles per gallon? As in I was driving an ICE car, not a battery electric? A Camaro SS convertible to be exact. 19.8 mpg driving it like I stole it. 24.4 mpg driving it 70-80 with the top down. If I had driven an EV it would have just charged Friday night while I slept. No time lost.

I will be impressed if you do the same trip my friend did on Saturday in the same way with your BEV. That was part of the answer. What a typical ICE can do day after day I do not think BEVs can do at all.

Did you not see where I said that if a person made that type of a trip regularly they should not buy a BEV? I’ll post it right here so you don’t have to go back and re-read the post…

Anyone who buys a vehicle should tailor their purchase to fit their fundamental use cases. If someone’s fundamental use case is similar to the one you described, they probably should not buy an EV.

Even in your response about the over the road tractors you make my point. 220 to 500 miles range. That is not over the road hauling miles which was my point. Bet the tractor with 500 mile range has extra batteries which both cost more and also reduce payload. I also did not miss the bit about range depends on the load weight.

Did you not see the part where I pointed out that the largest truck stop chain in the country is installing charging stations for commercial vehicles at their truck stops along the interstates? In case you missed it, here it is…

I should also point out that Pilot / Flying J is installing commercial vehicle grade EV chargers at many of their interstate truck centers. Pilot / Flying J is the country’s biggest truck stop operator.

GM, EVGo, and Pilot / Flying J partner to build EV Charging network

Volvo and Pilot / Flying J plan to install commercial vehicle charging network

So what that means is that BEV semis traveling more than 500 miles can either stop at a Pilot / Flying J and get 70% charge in 30 minutes, or they can spend the night in their sleeper cabs overnight (like diesel drivers do today) and get 100% charge while they sleep, then off for another 300-500 miles. Pretty easy to deliver interstate using that process

I keep a pickup to do work around my place and to tow my boat. Renting a truck from time to time is not a substitute for having one that can actually do truck stuff.

As well you should. If I needed a pickup truck for more than 2-3 weekends a year I’d probably own one. I don’t have that much of a need, so when I need one, I either use my father-in-law’s F-150 or I rent a truck for a day or two. Way more economical. I don’t have a BEV yet. Waiting for the Chevy Blazer EV SS to launch this fall. 577 hp of AWD fun. Ironically, my FIL bought a Chevy Bolt EUV earlier this year so now his F-150 spends most of its time sitting in his backlot. I can use it pretty much anytime I need to since it’s no longer his daily.

 

[K4fxd]

https://elements.visualcapitalist.com/every-electric-semi-truck-in-one-graphic/

None of these trucks are capable of replacing diesel. Some of them are capable of doing final mile delivery.

 

[martinjlm]

https://elements.visualcapitalist.com/every-electric-semi-truck-in-one-graphic/

None of these trucks are capable of replacing diesel. Some of them are capable of doing final mile delivery.

Tesla Semi and Nikola Tre are already capable of interstate commerce. They both have more than 300 mile range and availability to commercial vehicle charging networks with fast charge capability. Some of the network is in place now, some of it is in the process of being built out. When you look at the customers that are buying these vehicles, the cargo tends to be large and light (cases of beverages and salty snacks, consumer goods packages) so it is more about filling the cubic foot capacity than it is about maxing out the GVW. So they won’t be capable of replacing all diesel yet, but they can replace a good number of them for both intrastate and interstate commerce.

Diesel will still be around for a good while. At least until battery power density improves to the point that the same range can be delivered with smaller lighter batteries. Or until fuel cell powered semis (Nikola, Hyundai, Toyota) make it to market. Of course, there’s an infrastructure problem there too, but if the industry focuses on interstate locations for hydrogen reforming they might be able to run a play there.

https://www.greencarreports.com/news/1139569_toyota-and-
hyundai-broaden-fuel-cell-semi-plans-for-us

https://www.nikolamotor.com/press_r...infrastructure-funding-for-up-to-50-stations/

 

[Vlad Soare]

If you spent 5 seconds thinking about it, you’d realise that my purchase is a particularly good example PRECISELY why mandates are needed. When even people who accept the science are still buying ICE vehicle it should be quite apparent as to why a mandate is required. But no, you opted to miss that particular gem.

So, let me get this straight. What you're saying is that you're a selfish person and made a choice based solely on your own needs, having decided that an EV won't meet them, and now you wish that the government forced you to be a good boy and make the 'right' decision against your will, because you're too weak to make it yourself.

Burkey: "I'd love an EV, but I can't buy one, because the nearest dealership is hundreds of miles away".
Government: "So what? Just drive hundreds of miles, we don't care, that's your problem".
Burkey: "Oh, thank you, it's so kind of you to set me straight and save me from myself".

Really?

 

[kz]

Government: "So what? Just drive hundreds of miles, we don't care, that's your problem".

Now or in 2030ish ?

 

[K4fxd]

Now or in 2030ish ?

 

[Vlad Soare]

Now or in 2030ish ?

Doesn't matter. If in 2030ish there are enough dealerships all over the country, then Burkey will buy an EV of his own accord. No need for the government to forcefully remove all his other options just to stop him from making the 'wrong' choice.

Besides, 2030ish is like tomorrow.

 

[K4fxd]

Besides, 2030ish is like tomorrow.

I don't know how old you are but 7 years is a blink of an eye.

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