Forced Induction for Road Course

[Scat2018]

I just want to do a HPDS track day .4 20min Sessons lead follow nothing crazy.I got stage ll 3L whipple with the larger heat exchanger& and a fluidyne triple pass radiator. I was thinking to pulley down, but don’t know what the biggest pulley u can used.stage 1 uses a 4” stage ll uses a 3.875 so that 1lb.

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[Angrey]

It can be done, as others have said, with an ass load of additional cooling modifications, but probably the most important aspect would be some sort of management system to keep the torque/rpm under control. I'm sure you could learn to drive anything, but having gobs of torque available to overwhelm traction makes for a much more difficult experience trying to wring every bit out of the car. One false move and you're in an oversteer condition.

Without either a smooth boost or a wastegate to keep things muted, you're just going to have way too much torque on tap. Again, you can learn to calibrate your foot on anything, but I imagine if you wanted to hit it on the screws, it's going to be a MUCH more sphincter clinching experience trying to drive right to the edge with a car that has gobs of torque and power left over. With an N/A car, if you overstep, the mistake is less amplified. At some point on all tracks you're going to run over on sauce and basically overwhelm the aero/brakes.

Noteworthy is that MANY times, a blown car can be a "one lap wonder" and it puts down numbers that go in the brochure that help sales (like the S197 GT500's for example....for a lap or two they're great) but Ford REALLY REALLY put a lot of work into making sure the GT500 had ample cooling to keep even 755 horsepower from overheating. They redesigned the front fascia to increase airflow (even redesigning the grill) added coolers, vents, bigger components, etc. Then on top of all that they had to add ginormous brakes (more weight) to prevent it from being a one lap wonder with terrible fade.

In the end, the market kinda feeds back what works. Lighter, naturally aspirated seems to be the tried and true ticket compared to heavier, blown solutions.

 

[Angrey]

I guess what I'm trying to say is there's a difference in running a quick lap at the nurbergring and then running a 30 minute+ session. If you just want to be able to ball out for a short time, it works (as we've seen with the Z06 previous gens and the GT500s) but if you want something made to go multiple harsh sessions in the heat and you're in it for the full commitment, replacing consumables is going to eat your lunch (have you seen what a brake job on a GT500 or GT350 costs?). Heavier cars eat up tires faster too.

I'm more of a "I'm as good once" kinda guy so I favor the shorter format, but if you want something to really get into it and stay, I'd go gutted with max N/A.

 

[tosha]

Without either a smooth boost or a wastegate to keep things muted, you're just going to have way too much torque on tap. Again, you can learn to calibrate your foot on anything, but I imagine if you wanted to hit it on the screws, it's going to be a MUCH more sphincter clinching experience trying to drive right to the edge with a car that has gobs of torque and power left over

If you have an MT car, especially long gearing of MT82-D4, it's actually quite manageable and pleasant. A lot less shifting is necessary, it just pulls from any rpm. Obviously, that approach won't set best possible times, but we are talking hpde, not competitive racing. Most people just go there to have fun and learn something, they don't push their cars to absolute limit. It's manageable, and then you swap back to your 555r2 drag radials at the end of a weekend and enjoy it as usual.

Putting a supercharger to be faster on hpde events is a stupid idea, it won't work. But if you already have FI car that you want to have fun with few times a year on road course, that is an interesting journey.

In the end, the market kinda feeds back what works. Lighter, naturally aspirated seems to be the tried and true ticket compared to heavier, blown solutions.

For sure, light car is a lot more fun.

 

[HKusp]

The ZL1 1LE is a road course monster, but I don't know if it is designed for multiple laps.

 

[Angrey]

If you have an MT car, especially long gearing of MT82-D4, it's actually quite manageable and pleasant. A lot less shifting is necessary, it just pulls from any rpm. Obviously, that approach won't set best possible times, but we are talking hpde, not competitive racing. Most people just go there to have fun and learn something, they don't push their cars to absolute limit. It's manageable, and then you swap back to your 555r2 drag radials at the end of a weekend and enjoy it as usual.

Putting a supercharger to be faster on hpde events is a stupid idea, it won't work. But if you already have FI car that you want to have fun with few times a year on road course, that is an interesting journey.

For sure, light car is a lot more fun.

I was going to comment about "short shifting" but that kinda defeats the purpose I think. If you're going to short the drive line just to stay within the bounds of traction with a blower, it's kinda like going 3 blocks over, one block up and 3 blocks back just to arrive at the same spot as running out the n/a power train to it's full song.

 

[tosha]

I was going to comment about "short shifting" but that kinda defeats the purpose I think. If you're going to short the drive line just to stay within the bounds of traction with a blower, it's kinda like going 3 blocks over, one block up and 3 blocks back just to arrive at the same spot as running out the n/a power train to it's full song.

(Without getting too much into track-specific scenarios)
I'm talking from a practical perspective of doing this for last couple years. traction management was/is the least of my concerns. I really enjoy driving supercharged mustang on tracks, except from being worried about various possible mechanical failures and dealing with heat. I also advise against going that route to anyone who is seriously planning to do a track car. But, it's loads of fun nonetheless

 

[Angrey]

(Without getting too much into track-specific scenarios)
I'm talking from a practical perspective of doing this for last couple years. traction management was/is the least of my concerns. I really enjoy driving supercharged mustang on tracks, except from being worried about various possible mechanical failures and dealing with heat. I also advise against going that route to anyone who is seriously planning to do a track car. But, it's loads of fun nonetheless

I'll completely defer to you and your experience. I was just commenting from the perspective of intentionally adding a blower to a track car and then thinking the heat loads can be managed by simply short shifting (and shifting more frequently) to keep the rpms down. You get the same/similar torque, you just have to row through the gears faster and more often. It's kinda counter productive, but in THEORY, you could reduce the excess heat created by keeping the rpms and boost low enough that you replicate the same energy consumption/output as an N/A setup.

I once read a post by a guy who swore he didn't have heat issues after a PD blower setup because he just shorted it all around the track. (which probably also helps a little with traction management).

Now that I have the smoothboost, I'm curious as to what a setup with it would yield if someone experimented with partial settings around a track. I can turn the bypass all the way to full bypass (so essentially the car is making N/A power minus the additional parasitic draw of the blower) or I can dial it anywhere in between (making partial boost). To make it REALLY complicated, it could also be ramped in/out or even turned up/down at various points during a session.

 

[tosha]

intentionally adding a blower to a track car and then thinking the heat loads can be managed by simply short shifting (and shifting more frequently) to keep the rpms down

That would be a lot of wishful thinking and really bad idea . My scenario is - I already had it supercharged when I started doing track days. Kinda doesn't make sense to undo the SC at that point, so I went down the rabbit hole. With SC, I could technically do entire laps at Watkins Glen without ever needing to go into 3rd gear, car would pull out of every corner in 4 just fine and then go (well, Toe would be a bit of a challenge). The good thing about roush blower is it's still very linear torque. It's just like NA, just more of it at all rpm's. Turbo setup wouldn't work that way, I guess.

I once read a post by a guy who swore he didn't have heat issues after a PD blower setup because he just shorted it all around the track

Nah, it doesn't work that way. Higher rpm equals more oil and coolant flow and better cooling. Car likes it in 4-6.5k rpm range.

It takes a lot more to keep it reasonably cool (big ass radiator, hood louvers, ducting, irrigation system, oil cooling and etc). At this point I remember how to remove a bumper with eyes shut , and I am still working to figure out the whole heat management aspect. Mind you, it's northeast, no way in hell I imagine it working at all in Texas or Florida.

I can turn the bypass all the way to full bypass (so essentially the car is making N/A power minus the additional parasitic draw of the blower) or I can dial it anywhere in between (making partial boost)

Tell me more please!!!

 

[vaeevictiss]

So i see hoods brought up a couple times, whats the best aftermarket hood for cooling? I really dont care for the stock GT hood and its tiny extractors. I have been looking at the GT500 style hood and feel that would be much better.

Wonder if there would be a good way to just mist alcohol over the radiator. Helps cool well due to evaporating so fast. Just dont know how safe this would be around that much heat.

 

[Aero1900]

Again, I appreciate the responses. Thanks

 

[Angrey]

That would be a lot of wishful thinking and really bad idea . My scenario is - I already had it supercharged when I started doing track days. Kinda doesn't make sense to undo the SC at that point, so I went down the rabbit hole. With SC, I could technically do entire laps at Watkins Glen without ever needing to go into 3rd gear, car would pull out of every corner in 4 just fine and then go (well, Toe would be a bit of a challenge). The good thing about roush blower is it's still very linear torque. It's just like NA, just more of it at all rpm's. Turbo setup wouldn't work that way, I guess.

Nah, it doesn't work that way. Higher rpm equals more oil and coolant flow and better cooling. Car likes it in 4-6.5k rpm range.

It takes a lot more to keep it reasonably cool (big ass radiator, hood louvers, ducting, irrigation system, oil cooling and etc). At this point I remember how to remove a bumper with eyes shut , and I am still working to figure out the whole heat management aspect. Mind you, it's northeast, no way in hell I imagine it working at all in Texas or Florida.

Tell me more please!!!

Smooth boost voids the whipple warranty, which is why it's very uncommon/obscure, but Dodge folks have been using them for some time. It replaces the abrupt vacuum actuated bypass and creates an electronic, variable way of bleeding off boost so you can control the onset and help better control torque management. I only have mine set to the simplest of logic, it's directly indexed to my pedal position (so 100% WOT pedal is 100% bypass closed, 5% pedal is 95% bypass). It helps to "smooth" out the boost curve.

With more sophisticated controls/management, it could follow other ramp rates (a parabolic curved increase) or be managed to be turned completely on or off at different moments.

I'm about to get my MOTEC installed and I haven't had deep conversations with the tuner about whether they'll try to incorporate it into their flex fuel strategies (which are easier with turbos but a little more complex to try to get 93 to work on a PD blower making 19 psi peak). We'll see.

So in theory, you could set it up to bypass more whenever you desire it, or bypass less whenever you want more sauce, both globally and even locally in the moment. Say you're trying to keep heat loads down and you're choking the boost and torque down, but in a key moment of the session you need the full sauce to make a clean pass, you could do that and then turn it back down.

 

[69boss]

So i see hoods brought up a couple times, whats the best aftermarket hood for cooling? I really dont care for the stock GT hood and its tiny extractors. I have been looking at the GT500 style hood and feel that would be much better.

Wonder if there would be a good way to just mist alcohol over the radiator. Helps cool well due to evaporating so fast. Just dont know how safe this would be around that much heat.

I know a lot of people just use the stock hood with Track Spec vents. Much cheaper than an aftermarket hood, and looks pretty awesome, and also significantly improves cooling. I've heard some people that use these say their CHTs drop 20 degrees. I don't think there's an aftermarket hood that will beat the cooling of those vents. I've seen them in person and they are pretty massive vents.

I think a supercharged track mustang is doable with a larger radiator, centri SC, large intercooler, upgraded oil pump/pan, with proper hood venting. Maybe an ESS G2 with a G4 intercooler making around 600 hp. 700+ hp would be harder to deal with, and marginally faster.

 

[Angrey]

I know a lot of people just use the stock hood with Track Spec vents. Much cheaper than an aftermarket hood, and looks pretty awesome, and also significantly improves cooling. I've heard some people that use these say their CHTs drop 20 degrees. I don't think there's an aftermarket hood that will beat the cooling of those vents. I've seen them in person and they are pretty massive vents.

I think a supercharged track mustang is doable with a larger radiator, centri SC, large intercooler, upgraded oil pump/pan, with proper hood venting. Maybe an ESS G2 with a G4 intercooler making around 600 hp. 700+ hp would be harder to deal with, and marginally faster.

I bought a CF hood with the trackspec installed. I wouldn't recommend anyone intentionally take this path now that there's other vented hood options available with rain trays. Until someone fabricates a ran tray solution for the trackspec, it's going to be a fairweather, track only type application.

I've heard all the debates and read all the forums about how the motor should be able to take rain, blah blah blah. It's not good for electrical components to suffer direct weather often or all the time. It's one of the reasons there's a hood there in the first place. Having an open hood to the motor changes how I drive/use the car because I'm concerned about having it out and about either in the rain or sitting in a parking lot with sustained rain.

Just something to consider with the trackspec option. The aftermarket hood options are more expensive but without something to protect your very expensive motor and components (and the downtime waiting for replacement parts and assemblies) it's just asking for more trouble than we already face with high performance engines.

 

[vaeevictiss]

I bought a CF hood with the trackspec installed. I wouldn't recommend anyone intentionally take this path now that there's other vented hood options available with rain trays. Until someone fabricates a ran tray solution for the trackspec, it's going to be a fairweather, track only type application.

I've heard all the debates and read all the forums about how the motor should be able to take rain, blah blah blah. It's not good for electrical components to suffer direct weather often or all the time. It's one of the reasons there's a hood there in the first place. Having an open hood to the motor changes how I drive/use the car because I'm concerned about having it out and about either in the rain or sitting in a parking lot with sustained rain.

Just something to consider with the trackspec option. The aftermarket hood options are more expensive but without something to protect your very expensive motor and components (and the downtime waiting for replacement parts and assemblies) it's just asking for more trouble than we already face with high performance engines.

Ya i just was looking at those. They look awesome but not having a rain tray is a no go for me. I like that the GT500 style hood has the same type of rain tray the actual GT500 has.

That being said, im sure someone with a scanner and 3d printer could make something nice.

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