Finally made a pass in the boost

[Mustang Mikes Queen Creek]

Made a couple of passes in my 15 base model boost,3.15 gear auto.Consistant car to play with on a street tire.Stone stock except cobb base 1 91 tune padded with 3 gallons of 100 octane.Air temp was 48 degrees d.a was around 1400 ish.38 psi in all four 17 inch radials.

Tried to upload slip from phone won't allow it for some reason. 13.13 104.6mph 1.85 60ft leaving on a couple of pounds.

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[metalhead79]

Really nice time! I need to get up to Bandimere and see how much of a driver mod my car needs...

 

[Mustang Mikes Queen Creek]

Thanks the car still had lawn chairs and a bunch of misc crap in the car along with the spare,kind of a last minute decision to kill the boredom while the other car is still down.Slicks or Drs would def put this car in the solid 12s as is,ultimately id like a solid 12 teen street tire car after I install the speed parts and adams engine/trans tune.Something I can do some bracket racing with from time to time.Def a car with potential.

 

[jrock]

Why did you use 38 psi in the tires?

 

[Mustang Mikes Queen Creek]

I usually keep them aired up for fuel economy,Front tires are always filled with higher pressures on the drag car too,Figured I'd see how the car worked at the track as I would have it on the street,Ive done about 30 practice launches on the road with the tc and active mngmnt off,And that's how I raced it.The track had a descent prep too.Didnt touch the car just showed up for a couple of passes and left.I think icing the intake between rounds and having a fan blow on the stock intercooler would have dipped it into a 12.90 ish range.Last min decision so I didnt have anything with me to test with.

 

[TheLion]

Made a couple of passes in my 15 base model boost,3.15 gear auto.Consistant car to play with on a street tire.Stone stock except cobb base 1 91 tune padded with 3 gallons of 100 octane.Air temp was 48 degrees d.a was around 1400 ish.38 psi in all four 17 inch radials.

Tried to upload slip from phone won't allow it for some reason. 13.13 104.6mph 1.85 60ft leaving on a couple of pounds.

That's encouraging, especially for a Cobb stage 1, 91 tune. That also lends SOME credence to my theory that running a 91 tune with higher octane will allow a more optimal OAR value and hence timing, allowing the tune to run the most aggressive timing it is programmed to vs. a 91 tune running 91 which may have a less optimal OAR value tank to tank.

Basically the octane buffer allows everything to run at it's highest potential all the time. The loss in power under ideal conditions between 91 and 93 tunes (assuming your running the same octane rating as the tune) is only about 2%, which equates to less than 10whp / wtq, very minor difference. But I have theorized that gap will close in real world applications if you run 93 octane on a 91 tune because the octane buffer allows the 91 tune to run maximum timing (aka an OAR of -1 as opposed to -.5 etc.).

BTW, stock tires do better than most people give them credit for, especially on a drag strip, which is typically layered with rubber. On a street, sure you can slip them on a launch easily, forget 1 and 2 if it's even slightly damp or cold (35F here now), heck I've actually broken the back end loose in 4th gear on the highway when it was lightly whetted from a misty rain, down shifted to pass on a long stretch of uphill highway, going about 60 (at 4k rpm in 4th) and the whole rear started to get really floaty so I had to let off.

 

[tw557]

My mustang is all stock except for an intercooler. What do you use to monitor OAR? I would like to monitor some of these parameters also. I have the Torque app. I found the PID data to enter. Either the OAR is perfect as I always see -1 or I'm wondering if it isn't really monitoring at all. I do run 93 octane all the time.

 

[TheLion]

My mustang is all stock except for an intercooler. What do you use to monitor OAR? I would like to monitor some of these parameters also. I have the Torque app. I found the PID data to enter. Either the OAR is perfect as I always see -1 or I'm wondering if it isn't really monitoring at all. I do run 93 octane all the time.

I use Torque Pro and OBDIILink MX blue tooth adapter in conjunction with my el chepo "dumb" smart phone. Not the greatest setup, but enough to give you an idea of what's going on in general. Last time I checked my OAR was when I was running a freshly flashed 91 tune on a tank of BP 93 gas. On the 93 tune on that particular tank of BP 93 gas OAR was -0.61 but crept up to -0.74 after flashing back to 91 tune on the same tank.

So that is the only evidence I've seen to confirm my theory, that %13 increase in OAR, or if you account for a +1 possible OAR swing in the opposite direction, a 6.5% difference. I haven't had the OBDIILink plugged in for a while as it obviously prohibits my phone from interfacing with Sync, which I do use frequently. That's the down side of not having a data logger, I suppose though I could have opted for the WiFi version and used the wifi on my phone for OBDII and BT for the Sync....hind sight is always 20/20 though.

 

[tw557]

Did you need to add the PID in manually? I didn't see it listed in the Torque Pro app. I found the info on the web to enter it manually for OAR. Maybe with the stock tune and 93 it is always running at -1 for me.

 

[tittermary]

I use Torque Pro and OBDIILink MX blue tooth adapter in conjunction with my el chepo "dumb" smart phone. Not the greatest setup, but enough to give you an idea of what's going on in general. Last time I checked my OAR was when I was running a freshly flashed 91 tune on a tank of BP 93 gas. On the 93 tune on that particular tank of BP 93 gas OAR was -0.61 but crept up to -0.74 after flashing back to 91 tune on the same tank.

So that is the only evidence I've seen to confirm my theory, that %13 increase in OAR, or if you account for a +1 possible OAR swing in the opposite direction, a 6.5% difference. I haven't had the OBDIILink plugged in for a while as it obviously prohibits my phone from interfacing with Sync, which I do use frequently. That's the down side of not having a data logger, I suppose though I could have opted for the WiFi version and used the wifi on my phone for OBDII and BT for the Sync....hind sight is always 20/20 though.

how many degrees of timing do you think the car was pulling with an oar of -.61 or -.74? what do you think the cly1 ing timing would be? and what do you think the per cly ing corrections have to be to drop the oar that much?

 

[TheLion]

how many degrees of timing do you think the car was pulling with an oar of -.61 or -.74? what do you think the cly1 ing timing would be? and what do you think the per cly ing corrections have to be to drop the oar that much?

I honestly can't say as I'm not exactly sure how OAR values factor into ignition corrections.

I'll have to take a look and see if I can get an OAR reading now with the OE plugs on the current tank of gas. I've had some issues with getting data that isn't corrupted from the OBDIILink MX and my crappy "dumb" smart phone. BTW I also PM'ed Liernois to ask them how much that would pull timing or how much of an influence it would have.

Regardless, they have some pretty darn fast cars. 12.67 on a tune only EB, 11.8 on their race gas tune with DR's and the removal of the passenger seat / cat back exhaust. Stock everything else. So far they haven't blown up a single customer car either, so I'd imagine their thoroughness is quite good as well. Hopefully in the spring I can get to the track and find out what the car runs to give us an idea of how their tune works in a manual with a bunch of bolt ons. We know how it does in an auto.

 

[tittermary]

I honestly can't say as I'm not exactly sure how OAR values factor into ignition corrections.

I'll have to take a look and see if I can get an OAR reading now with the OE plugs on the current tank of gas. I've had some issues with getting data that isn't corrupted from the OBDIILink MX and my crappy "dumb" smart phone. BTW I also PM'ed Liernois to ask them how much that would pull timing or how much of an influence it would have.

Regardless, they have some pretty darn fast cars. 12.67 on a tune only EB, 11.8 on their race gas tune with DR's and the removal of the passenger seat / cat back exhaust. Stock everything else. So far they haven't blown up a single customer car either, so I'd imagine their thoroughness is quite good as well. Hopefully in the spring I can get to the track and find out what the car runs to give us an idea of how their tune works in a manual with a bunch of bolt ons. We know how it does in an auto.

dont really care about the oar reading doesn't mean much, ing correction counts tells you a lot more, Not sure why you bring this up but I really dont care what a tuners shop car runs and I'm even less impressed with their results.

What I'm trying to understand is your logic in saying a 91 tune is only 10hp less then a good 93 tune. Do you think a 91 tune runs the same boost as a 93 tune ?

If you getting ignition corrections enough to lower the oar by the amounts your saying then you have a bad tune, bad gas or bad plugs, run it long enough and it will cause damage.

 

[TheLion]

dont really care about the oar reading doesn't mean much, ing correction counts tells you a lot more, Not sure why you bring this up but I really dont care what a tuners shop car runs and I'm even less impressed with their results.

What I'm trying to understand is your logic in saying a 91 tune is only 10hp less then a good 93 tune. Do you think a 91 tune runs the same boost as a 93 tune ?

If you getting ignition corrections enough to lower the oar by the amounts your saying then you have a bad tune, bad gas or bad plugs, run it long enough and it will cause damage.

Your presume too much and I think we went around this circle before (you and I that is), Livernois doesn't increase boost, nor does FP. They achieve their results via other means. Remember there's more than one way to skin a cat.

I've found forum posts, Cobb's own explanations etc. which illustrate this general trend. It is not a perfect rule of thumb which holds absolute, however it generally applies to within a couple of percent margin of error.

One example was a 700 HP super charged coyote V8 on a S197, guy bought it used from out of state (lived in Cali), so he had to have the car re-tuned to 91. Made 680 HP after adjusting for 91 octane.

680 / 700 is about a 3% difference. Cobb's web site provides the following illustration as well: https://cobbtuning.atlassian.net/wiki/display/PRS/Ford+Mustang+EcoBoost+Map+Notes

Your free to say whatever you want however untrue it may be, suggesting my engine is going to fail with no evidence is quite a leap, especially since Livernois has a 20+ year history and has to date not failed a customer car (yes we vetted out this claim before as well). You know nothing of me, of my car, how it's running etc...I would call that wild and outrageous speculation at best.

A value that isn't -1.00 isn't necessarily indicative of a bad dune. OAR is a scaling factor based on knock detection, its used by the PCM to optimize ignition timing tables which are scaled according to fuel quality if all other conditions remain the same. Mechanical malfunctions could certainly affect that, however assuming the engine is mechanically sound, then your at the mercy of the fuel available in your area regarding OAR. A value of -0.61 for a 93 tune and -0.74 for 91 tune is near the maximum permissible scaling factor which is -1.00. My car ran the same OAR values with the stock PCM software when I first started messing around with data logging, which is what it was at last time I checked. I have not checked since the temperatures drop, but intend to do so in the near future just for my own curiosity.

 

[tittermary]

Your presume too much and I think we went around this circle before (you and I that is), Livernois doesn't increase boost, nor does FP. They achieve their results via other means. Remember there's more than one way to skin a cat.

I've found forum posts, Cobb's own explanations etc. which illustrate this general trend. It is not a universal one size fits all, however it generally holds true to within a certain margin of error.

One example was a 700 HP super charged coyote V8 on a S197, guy bought it used from out of state (lived in Cali), so he had to have the car re-tuned to 91. Made 680 HP after adjusting for 91 octane.

680 / 700 is about a 3% difference. Cobb's web site provides the following illustration as well: https://cobbtuning.atlassian.net/wiki/display/PRS/Ford+Mustang+EcoBoost+Map+Notes

Your free to say whatever you want however untrue it may be, suggesting my engine is going to fail with no evidence is quite a leap, especially since Livernois has a 20+ year history and has to date not failed a customer car (yes we vetted out this claim before as well). You know nothing of me, of my car, how it's running etc...I would call that wild and outrageous speculation at best.

why do keep bringing livernois into this ? I have been there done it and it sucked, (not much into supporting a company that at best misleads ) no matter i see the logic Your talking canned not custom tunes your 2-3% rule might hold true since they are so mild, i see that's what your comparing too so now i understand, same holds true for the oar discussion. But if you believe that liver doesn't increase boost in parts of the rpm range then there's no use discussing things.

 

[apx632]

I use Torque Pro and OBDIILink MX blue tooth adapter in conjunction with my el chepo "dumb" smart phone. Not the greatest setup, but enough to give you an idea of what's going on in general. Last time I checked my OAR was when I was running a freshly flashed 91 tune on a tank of BP 93 gas. On the 93 tune on that particular tank of BP 93 gas OAR was -0.61 but crept up to -0.74 after flashing back to 91 tune on the same tank.

So that is the only evidence I've seen to confirm my theory, that %13 increase in OAR, or if you account for a +1 possible OAR swing in the opposite direction, a 6.5% difference. I haven't had the OBDIILink plugged in for a while as it obviously prohibits my phone from interfacing with Sync, which I do use frequently. That's the down side of not having a data logger, I suppose though I could have opted for the WiFi version and used the wifi on my phone for OBDII and BT for the Sync....hind sight is always 20/20 though.

I'll tell ya now part of his success was the temp being so cool and that 100 octane probably allowed the tune to put in a lil more timing and boost. On straight 91 I don't think the car would've run quite as strong.


To the OP, great times and MPH for the 91 tune. I'm jealous of that 60ft. When I took mine to the track (granted it was stock) best I needed was a 1.94 when I ran 13.6.

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