Electric for everyone - the impossible dream

[Fly2High]

JD Power said this:
https://www.jdpower.com/cars/shoppi...,management systems and charging restrictions.



Buying a battery can set you back by a hefty sum, but in most cases, you won’t have to make that purchase at all. Generally, EV car batteries last from 10 to 20 years. Certain factors like heat, cold, or swift charging times can negatively affect that and reduce performance. Manufacturers have already included protective measures like thermal management systems and charging restrictions. Plus, you always get a warranty that covers the repairs if need be.

Every electric car battery will face degradation. Though it is inevitable, you should not worry too much. Manufacturers are trying to do everything possible to improve the life cycle and preserve top performance. So, whenever you buy an EV, you can expect your battery to work for quite some time.


My question is this. If the battery management system will factor in battery condition, does that mean the car will not warm the interior in the winter, reduce HP, slow charging, etc. as the battery ages?

Not sure I like that.

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[Fly2High]

This is one argument I see circulated a lot, however it has very little to back it up. First generation teslas are still running strong, for some reason people hear "electric car" and assume the battery degradation will be similar to a cell phone they bought in 2009.

We're talking about a temperature controlled battery pack with tight cell monitoring, balancing, and individually fused cells. Its using literally the most advanced charge control algorithms in existence to compensate for and actively slow down degradation. The lifespan of one of these packs is well over 10 years.

Even if the pack wears out (which is does gradually not all at once), it is one of a small number wear items on the car. The complexity of an EV is vastly lower than an ICE vehicle.

Also I don't know where the idea that you have to throw the car away because of a worn pack comes from, its completely serviceable and parts are available now. The motor in your mustang costs $10k to replace before labor but we don't complain about that.

The battery argument bugs me, I've spent a lot of time working with and learning about lithium management in my career. I've seen lithium cells designed to survive in space, under water, under pressure, and countless other far higher risk environments than a car. These things are dependable and predictable, far more than a motor. Why do we expect cell phone Ni-Cd performance from the best lithium pack in the entire world? We do we see a new technology and just assume its impossible instead of appreciating the achievement?

Sure, the drivetrain is less complex but the fuel system in an EV is several orders of magnitude MORE complex than an ICE. All you have is a tank and fuel pump.

I think we need to compare complexity of the entire unit, not just certain components.

 

[shogun32]

If the battery management system will factor in battery condition, does that mean the car will not warm the interior in the winter, reduce HP, slow charging, etc. as the battery ages?

I doubt it will degrade to the point of not warming the interior. HOWEVER a cold battery is shit for current. It won't take a charge and it does a lousy job at discharge. If they under-insulate or under-size the heating element, it's entirely possible all systems get cut off in the interests of protecting or at least warming the pack. That's another thing many people don't realize. If your car is parked in ambient, it will burn the charge keeping itself warm. So you may wake up to a low/flat battery or you have greatly diminished range when it's time to leave.

But you're kinda stupid if you rely on an EV and live north of Mason-Dixon and don't have climate controlled parking at both ends.

 

[Strokerswild]

I doubt it will degrade to the point of not warming the interior. HOWEVER a cold battery is shit for current. It won't take a charge and it does a lousy job at discharge. If they under-insulate or under-size the heating element, it's entirely possible all systems get cut off in the interests of protecting or at least warming the pack. That's another thing many people don't realize. If your car is parked in ambient, it will burn the charge keeping itself warm. So you may wake up to a low/flat battery or you have greatly diminished range when it's time to leave.

But you're kinda stupid if you rely on an EV and live north of Mason-Dixon and don't have climate controlled parking at both ends.

Hence my 'offer' to torture test any EV here in MN during a typical winter in my typical use cycle....

 

[junits15]

Sure, the drivetrain is less complex but the fuel system in an EV is several orders of magnitude MORE complex than an ICE. All you have is a tank and fuel pump.

I think we need to compare complexity of the entire unit, not just certain components.

Yes, but how many failure points are in the system? A mechanical system is inherently unreliable when compared to a solid state electrical system. Complexity and failure are related, but not directly. A more complex electrical system will be less failure prone than a similarly complex mechanical system.

The energy storage system of a combustion engine car is less complex than an electric vehicle, but the motor of a combustion engine car is vastly more complex and error prone than the entirely of an electric vehicle. That’s the issue.

I doubt it will degrade to the point of not warming the interior. HOWEVER a cold battery is shit for current. It won't take a charge and it does a lousy job at discharge. If they under-insulate or under-size the heating element, it's entirely possible all systems get cut off in the interests of protecting or at least warming the pack. That's another thing many people don't realize. If your car is parked in ambient, it will burn the charge keeping itself warm. So you may wake up to a low/flat battery or you have greatly diminished range when it's time to leave.

But you're kinda stupid if you rely on an EV and live north of Mason-Dixon and don't have climate controlled parking at both ends.

This isn't a problem in real life. Nobody has climate controlled parking here, they still get in every day. You can't throw a rock without hitting an EV


If you don't put gas in your car it wont run, if you don't charge your EV it wont run.

 

[sk47]

Hello; Back a few months in a different thread about BEV's a link was posted about a wintertime BEV charging experience. From, what I recall the EV owner needed a charge at a commercial station. Gist of the story was that it was so cold the charger was consuming so much energy trying to warm up the battery pack that it did not get to charge the battery.

Bottom line seems to be thar BEV's will work well enough for a limited portion of the population. For many they will not work in the current state of things. That those for whom the BEV can work can have one is a fine idea. To try to make everyone use a product inferior for their needs and living conditions is THE PROBLEM. I do not care that others have an EV.
In fact I live far enough south and have a home in which i could have an EV in a basement garage. I also do not drive so much anymore. I could make an EV work. I will not any time soon as they cost too much, even with incentives.
I also do not have confidence in their fire safety. That fire issue will have to be much better solved before i will charge or park an EV in my basement garage. Could be that by the numbers BEV's do not catch fire any more often than an ICE, I do not know. Even if correct the problem is once they do catch fire they are so very much harder to extinguish. It is not the rate at which they catch fire. it is the intensity of that fire. I have five fire extinguishers scattered around my house and two garden hoses hooked up and ready to go at two different spots. I might have a shot at controlling an ICE fire. I will not have a chance with a BEV.
I have a two-spot carport well away from the house. That is where any BEV will be parked if I am forced to own one. The cost of installing a home charger will be much higher to run 50 amp capacity lines that distance.

 

[Mach VII]

I doubt it will degrade to the point of not warming the interior. HOWEVER a cold battery is shit for current. It won't take a charge and it does a lousy job at discharge. If they under-insulate or under-size the heating element, it's entirely possible all systems get cut off in the interests of protecting or at least warming the pack. That's another thing many people don't realize. If your car is parked in ambient, it will burn the charge keeping itself warm. So you may wake up to a low/flat battery or you have greatly diminished range when it's time to leave.

But you're kinda stupid if you rely on an EV and live north of Mason-Dixon and don't have climate controlled parking at both ends.

My experience is that any one that owns a EV has a charging port at home that would allow the vehicle to maintain the battery temperature without degrading capacity even if out in the elements.

Food shopping back in February, temp was about -8F. I wasted gas warming the car up, they refilled their charge while getting their groceries. Big white box holds Tesla batteries they recovered from their vehicles then repaired and now repurposed to help meet high demand,

 

[Hack]

This is one argument I see circulated a lot, however it has very little to back it up. First generation teslas are still running strong, for some reason people hear "electric car" and assume the battery degradation will be similar to a cell phone they bought in 2009.

We're talking about a temperature controlled battery pack with tight cell monitoring, balancing, and individually fused cells. Its using literally the most advanced charge control algorithms in existence to compensate for and actively slow down degradation. The lifespan of one of these packs is well over 10 years.

Even if the pack wears out (which is does gradually not all at once), it is one of a small number wear items on the car. The complexity of an EV is vastly lower than an ICE vehicle.

Also I don't know where the idea that you have to throw the car away because of a worn pack comes from, its completely serviceable and parts are available now. The motor in your mustang costs $10k to replace before labor but we don't complain about that.

The battery argument bugs me, I've spent a lot of time working with and learning about lithium management in my career. I've seen lithium cells designed to survive in space, under water, under pressure, and countless other far higher risk environments than a car. These things are dependable and predictable, far more than a motor. Why do we expect cell phone Ni-Cd performance from the best lithium pack in the entire world? We do we see a new technology and just assume its impossible instead of appreciating the achievement?

OK, I don't want to get personal, but as someone that's not involved with batteries there are a few points you've made that don't seem to line up with my understanding. Maybe you can correct me.

It is forbidden to pack certain batteries in airline bags (except carry on). I'm pretty sure it's lithium batteries that they are afraid will cause fires or other problems. Is that right?

Replacement of a battery in a Tesla is $5k to $30K. They warranty the battery to hold 80% of the charge at 100,000 miles. This is a huge difference between an ICE vehicle and an EV. The EV can't perform as well in a short amount of time (probably 5-10 years with normal use). The ICE, if properly maintained, will last much longer and it won't lose range during that time.

I think ICEs are much more reliable than lithium ion batteries. They last for many years and are relatively easy to rebuild. They also use common materials that are inexpensive and plentiful.

JD Power said this:
https://www.jdpower.com/cars/shopping-guides/how-long-do-electric-car-batteries-last#:~:text=Generally, EV car batteries last,management systems and charging restrictions.



Buying a battery can set you back by a hefty sum, but in most cases, you won’t have to make that purchase at all. Generally, EV car batteries last from 10 to 20 years. Certain factors like heat, cold, or swift charging times can negatively affect that and reduce performance. Manufacturers have already included protective measures like thermal management systems and charging restrictions. Plus, you always get a warranty that covers the repairs if need be.

Every electric car battery will face degradation. Though it is inevitable, you should not worry too much. Manufacturers are trying to do everything possible to improve the life cycle and preserve top performance. So, whenever you buy an EV, you can expect your battery to work for quite some time.


My question is this. If the battery management system will factor in battery condition, does that mean the car will not warm the interior in the winter, reduce HP, slow charging, etc. as the battery ages?

Not sure I like that.

There are very few EVs that have been on the road for 20 years. I would actually be surprised if there are ANY at all. No one really knows how long the batteries last. It's not like ICE vehicles where there are hundreds of thousands and we know how long they last.

Yes, but how many failure points are in the system? A mechanical system is inherently unreliable when compared to a solid state electrical system. Complexity and failure are related, but not directly. A more complex electrical system will be less failure prone than a similarly complex mechanical system.

The energy storage system of a combustion engine car is less complex than an electric vehicle, but the motor of a combustion engine car is vastly more complex and error prone than the entirely of an electric vehicle. That’s the issue.


This isn't a problem in real life. Nobody has climate controlled parking here, they still get in every day. You can't throw a rock without hitting an EV


If you don't put gas in your car it wont run, if you don't charge your EV it wont run.

Mechanical systems are very reliable - but just like any system, design, materials, process controls - it's as reliable as it's built to be.

Saying either an EV or ICE is inherently unreliable is incorrect. Any and every car can be reliable. It just depends on the quality of the components.

If I forget to put gas in my car, I can refuel in a couple minutes and be ready for a long road trip. To me, that's the biggest flaw in EVs currently. It takes too long to refuel them.

 

[junits15]

OK, I don't want to get personal, but as someone that's not involved with batteries there are a few points you've made that don't seem to line up with my understanding. Maybe you can correct me.

It is forbidden to pack certain batteries in airline bags (except carry on). I'm pretty sure it's lithium batteries that they are afraid will cause fires or other problems. Is that right?

Replacement of a battery in a Tesla is $5k to $30K. They warranty the battery to hold 80% of the charge at 100,000 miles. This is a huge difference between an ICE vehicle and an EV. The EV can't perform as well in a short amount of time (probably 5-10 years with normal use). The ICE, if properly maintained, will last much longer and it won't lose range during that time.

I think ICEs are much more reliable than lithium ion batteries. They last for many years and are relatively easy to rebuild. They also use common materials that are inexpensive and plentiful.




There are very few EVs that have been on the road for 20 years. I would actually be surprised if there are ANY at all. No one really knows how long the batteries last. It's not like ICE vehicles where there are hundreds of thousands and we know how long they last.



Mechanical systems are very reliable - but just like any system, design, materials, process controls - it's as reliable as it's built to be.

Saying either an EV or ICE is inherently unreliable is incorrect. Any and every car can be reliable. It just depends on the quality of the components.

If I forget to put gas in my car, I can refuel in a couple minutes and be ready for a long road trip. To me, that's the biggest flaw in EVs currently. It takes too long to refuel them.

Take a can of gas on a plane and tell me what they say lol

 

[Hack]

Take a can of gas on a plane and tell me what they say lol

The plane already has huge amounts of petroleum fuel on it. Why would I need to pack more? Obviously gas is completely safe on the plane, because all planes run on it.

 

[Balr14]

You have no idea what the word "mandate" means, and no idea what harm these ridiculous, retarded, ignorant mandates are going to cause.

It's odd you're just o.k. with all of that.

Easily explained. I'm 80 yo and I have several physical conditions that mean my driving days are numbered. I have bought my last car and it will be sold in a few years with very low miles. I also am hearing impaired, so the sound of ICE doesn't mean much. So, this is all academic to me. I kind of wish I could be around to see how this all ends up, but that isn't going to happen. In the meantime, I use about 100 gallons of gas a year... not enough to make gas prices an issue or justify an EV.

 

[2016S550]

Easily explained. I'm 80 yo and I have several physical conditions that mean my driving days are numbered. I have bought my last car and it will be sold in a few years with very low miles. I also am hearing impaired, so the sound of ICE doesn't mean much. So, this is all academic to me. I kind of wish I could be around to see how this all ends up, but that isn't going to happen. In the meantime, I use about 100 gallons of gas a year... not enough to make gas prices an issue or justify an EV.

I dunno, I suppose nobody wants to realize the end regardless but I would trade being born in 1943 for 1970 in a heartbeat. Not to drift the thread away but growing up in the 80s-90s I feel like some of the technology has caused a lot of the worlds problems with instant gratification and other cell phone/social media issues. If you know what excitement Saturday morning cartoons brought then you may understand why I have said what I have. I’m not saying anyone else should feel this way, I just do. I would trade any future technologies for the opportunity to have grow up in the 50s-60s. I dread the way the world will be in 25 years based on what the last 3 have brought.

I’m just kind of ignorant with the EV push. If the current production of electricity is based 60% on Fossil Fuels then how is increasing the demand of electricity which will require a proportional increase use of Fossil Fuels beneficial? I’m not anti or pro EV, but feel the cart has been placed ahead of the horse with infrastructure. The passing of laws that will require the complete elimination or reduction or ICE vehicles by a certain % by 2035 is premature.

Maybe in 12 years technology will make those laws realistic, but it feels sad to think that in 12 years you won’t be able to buy anything other than a zero emission vehicle in many states.

 

[shogun32]

It's all politics based on utterly fraudulent "not science". Certain people and companies have become vastly wealthy based on this 1st world con just in the last 20 years. The every man will be murdered by the bushel if it is allowed to continue on the current farcical trajectory.

 

[sk47]

I dunno, I suppose nobody wants to realize the end regardless but I would trade being born in 1943 for 1970 in a heartbeat. Not to drift the thread away but growing up in the 80s-90s I feel like some of the technology has caused a lot of the worlds problems with instant gratification and other cell phone/social media issues. If you know what excitement Saturday morning cartoons brought then you may understand why I have said what I have. I’m not saying anyone else should feel this way, I just do. I would trade any future technologies for the opportunity to have grow up in the 50s-60s. I dread the way the world will be in 25 years based on what the last 3 have brought.

I’m just kind of ignorant with the EV push. If the current production of electricity is based 60% on Fossil Fuels then how is increasing the demand of electricity which will require a proportional increase use of Fossil Fuels beneficial? I’m not anti or pro EV, but feel the cart has been placed ahead of the horse with infrastructure. The passing of laws that will require the complete elimination or reduction or ICE vehicles by a certain % by 2035 is premature.

Maybe in 12 years technology will make those laws realistic, but it feels sad to think that in 12 years you won’t be able to buy anything other than a zero emission vehicle in many states.

Hello; Find and read a book titled OUR DOGS DID NOT BARK. Been out a few years. Fiction to be sure but may provide insights.

I sort of follow your growing up the 1950' & 60's notion. However likely need to move the time back maybe a decade. Reason being I was born in 1947 so did grow up during those times. Being part of the first waves of the baby boom pretty much spoiled many things. There were just too many of us. A good example was getting into schools. Every new school I went to was overcrowded, especially at the college level. Then fresh out of college too many of us were scrambling for not enough jobs.
I sometimes felt those who were around ten years old in 1945 had a good shot at the post war boom in the USA. They were old enough to have the good cars of the late 1950's and early 1960's. Gas was cheap at somewhere around 25 cents /gallon or so right up to 1972.
Lots of fine cars in the 1960's up till the cost of insurance killed the high-performance era in the early 1970's.
Smog stuff started in 1969 and pretty much spoiled the majority of cars during the 1970's. It was everyday business to turn off the key of a 70's car and have the engine run on and sputter for a while if you had an automatic.

I graduated high school in 1965 and the era of finding a good paying job right away was coming to an end. I knew lots of guys a few years older than me who could have nice cars and could find a job anytime they wanted one.
But wishes and dreaming will not change the times of our lives.

 

[Thomas]

I dunno, I suppose nobody wants to realize the end regardless but I would trade being born in 1943 for 1970 in a heartbeat. Not to drift the thread away but growing up in the 80s-90s I feel like some of the technology has caused a lot of the worlds problems with instant gratification and other cell phone/social media issues. If you know what excitement Saturday morning cartoons brought then you may understand why I have said what I have. I’m not saying anyone else should feel this way, I just do. I would trade any future technologies for the opportunity to have grow up in the 50s-60s. I dread the way the world will be in 25 years based on what the last 3 have brought.

I’m just kind of ignorant with the EV push. If the current production of electricity is based 60% on Fossil Fuels then how is increasing the demand of electricity which will require a proportional increase use of Fossil Fuels beneficial? I’m not anti or pro EV, but feel the cart has been placed ahead of the horse with infrastructure. The passing of laws that will require the complete elimination or reduction or ICE vehicles by a certain % by 2035 is premature.

Maybe in 12 years technology will make those laws realistic, but it feels sad to think that in 12 years you won’t be able to buy anything other than a zero emission vehicle in many states.

There are a lot of competing agendas, and it muddies the waters around legislation, infrastructure and EV tech itself.

There are guys who actually believe in the tech and a green future (Musk) and then there are entrenched interests (politicians) who care about staying in office and simply paying lip service to ESG (Environmental and Social Governance) initiatives. They go where money and public support goes.

Then you have the groups actually driving these initiatives all on the name of a better world. The UN, and very very large asset managers who control most of the worlds assets. Blackrock ESG, Rockefeller Institute, Soros’s various foundations, Gates Foundation etc.They don’t care about EVs, or the climate. They simply use it as a globally binding interest to sway public interest to drive choices by politicians and legislation to in-turn alter corporate and individual behavior. This is not conspiracy, it’s just what they do. It’s how the money flow is setup.

I would view EVs less as a vehicle, but as a sensor on 4 wheels. “Safety” legislation requiring more sensors and monitoring on cars moving forward allow for unprecedented data collection outside and inside the vehicle. With an EV, everything can be exactly monitored and collected before being sent back to a cloud sever. It is all very convenient and people will adopt it for that reason

There is enormous buildout in server farms, and 6G networks happening right now to support global data collection for cell phones, cars, smart home devices, media devices, etc. The company I work at (power industry) has been struggling to get parts as we have been competing with an enormous amount of post Covid industrialization geared towards centralized networking, data, AI and computing. This centralization is even being discussed in the power industry as global communication standards are being pushed to track and monitor power usage (this is the industry I work in as an engineer).

These topics and concepts are standard fare in engineering publications we get. So, I’m not explicitly anti EV as I love the performance gains but I will refuse to buy any integrated and networked vehicle without first disabling the networking link. This is also why I utterly hate the idea of a car requiring software updates to function. But…people will still buy due to convenience and being pushed towards it without really seeing what is happening.

Regarding implementation, thmuch of this is simply being rammed through regardless of effectiveness or merits. Nearly every global company of the 155 that signed ESG agreements (essentially “Woke” initiatives) proposed by the UN, did so because they did not want to lose financing from the global banks that drive ESG initiatives and have control of most international sources of funding. Only one company stated they actually did it for the environment. The UN also has influence over WHO and IMF funding for international and developing market investments.

We should waste less, and treat our world better, and there is a lot of abuse of resources and land in addition to a lot of confusion. But at the highest levels, I do not believe for a second that the climate or planet is the focus. It is just a global rallying cry being used to push agendas that increase control over resources and you.

I recommend looking into ESG scores. Essentially they are a global rating used to determine which companies have access to funding. This is at the heart of why Bud Light went woke, and subsequently lost billions. They marketed to a demographic that did not even form a part of their customer base in order to boost their ESG score and access to funds, instead of actually paying attention to their customers. But if brands are beholden to debt to run and expand their business, then this ESG score (basically a corporate social score) can be weaponized to force them to push the agenda of the institution lending them the money. Vote with your money while you still can, the power it will very much with us everyday folks but you have to care enough to change your habits and purchasing patterns/sources. Ongoing education is key as well. So many people just do not care anymore and that is a win for the ESG crowd.

*puts tinfoil hat back on*

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