Electric for everyone - the impossible dream

[tdstuart]

I think very few HATE EV's What we hate is being forced to buy one. We hate the mandates.

My neighbor had a Tesla, I forget what model, it was fun from a dig. Then it went into BBQ mode and burned down his house.

There is a surprising amount of people on social media who hate electric cars just to hate them. Doesn't matter if its a model s running a 9 second quarter mile or putting car lengths on a 1000cc bike or an electric super car. They will comment "I will never drive a souless ev, so boring". Ah yes doing sub 3 second 0-60 and doing 5 second 60-130 is super boring.

People are more reasonable here.

And yes I like my mustang, there is a reason I don't have a tesla. I agree that forcing people to buy electric cars shouldn't be the answer. I don't think it's a big enough impact on the environment to warrant that.

But we shouldn't act like Teslas are the only cars that catch on fire. Ford has had big issues with cars catching on fire recently. Although electric fires are harder to put out.

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[KingKona]

Most of it is a federal tax credit although depending on where you live I think some states may have additional benefits.

Soooo.....some magic source of money? Some Keebler elves just handing out "tax credits"?

 

[shogun32]

Most of it is a federal tax credit although depending on where you live I think some states may have additional benefits.

this is absolutely no different than giving a toddler a lollipop to shut them the hell up. You are bribing them to change behavior. Sure, it's more pleasant and easier than the Paddlin'. If the economic case can't be made, then it's a dead end. Every EV subsidy is THEFT from everyone else in the local jurisdiction. I have a problem supporting organized theft. I'll let you steal 7500 from the public purse if we all get to line up and cane your ass like the shopkeepers do to THIEVES who help themselves to the product on the shelves.

 

[tdstuart]

Soooo.....some magic source of money? Some Keebler elves just handing out "tax credits"?

The IRS just deducts the amount from your taxes you owe

https://www.irs.gov/credits-deductions/credits-for-new-clean-vehicles-purchased-in-2023-or-after

 

[shogun32]

Ah yes doing sub 3 second 0-60 and doing 5 second 60-130 is super boring.

it absolutely is BORING as F'k. In the exact same way twisting the throttle of a GSXR thou' in a straight line is BORING as F'k. Get your knee on the ground, your elbow skimming the pavement, and THEN we'll talk about what isn't boring.

 

[tdstuart]

this is absolutely no different than giving a toddler a lollipop to shut them the hell up. You are bribing them to change behavior. Sure, it's more pleasant and easier than the Paddlin'. If the economic case can't be made, then it's a dead end. Every EV subsidy is THEFT from everyone else in the local jurisdiction. I have a problem supporting organized theft.

Im not saying you are wrong, just showing what you can get.

Because in reality it's not like the government is cutting their budget to give you the money back. They are just taxing everyone else a little more.

But in general I agree with your point.

 

[KingKona]

The IRS just deducts the amount from your taxes you owe

https://www.irs.gov/credits-deductions/credits-for-new-clean-vehicles-purchased-in-2023-or-after

 

[tdstuart]

it absolutely is BORING as F'k. In the exact same way twisting the throttle of a GSXR thou' in a straight line is BORING as F'k. Get your knee on the ground, your elbow skimming the pavement, and THEN we'll talk about what isn't boring.

Well I hope you go to the track a lot then.

Personally I think going fast in a straight line is pretty fun.

 

[tdstuart]

Do you think me pointing it out means I agree with it or do you just like to act like a child?

 

[rocsteady]

So many problems with forcing the change to EVs so quickly. California already has rolling blackouts and the inability to keep up with A/C usage as it stands. Add in more and more people with EVs that won't be able to charge from the already overtaxed grid. Then take into account the attack on fossil fuels so they are eliminating sources of the electricity that is already in short supply.
As far as weight, it's not about not being able to track the car, it's about whether parking garages, bridges, overpasses, etc. can withstand the weight.
Has anyone become sure of what do we do with the giant batteries when they have completed their life cycle? We already have a war on plastic straws and plastic bags because they "take up too much space in landfills." How many straws and plastic bags does it take to equal a giant car battery? If plastic bags and straws are bad for the planet, what about the giant batteries?
My phone gets less and less performance as it's used and recharged over and over. Do the car batteries have this problem solved? Or will you get incrementally less range every time you charge the car? How does it deal with freezing temps? How about summer heat?
We may one day switch over to something, I personally think synthetic fuels would be a much better alternative, but to force the EV switch at this breakneck speed is exactly what we seem to do all the time, and we'll get the same results. It will fail initially and we'll be begging our adversaries for oil again. Most 10 year olds could probably predict this, I'm just stating the obvious.
Sadly, the hysteria mob will continue to drive the direction we're going until it all collapses.

And more along the lines of our forum, these cars are absolutely soulless. You will never be able to explain what it was like to drive a GT350 and how it sounded and felt, to our great grandchildren when we're either back to horses and buggies or walking or driving some version of EV that eventually won out.

 

[tdstuart]

My phone gets less and less performance as it's used and recharged over and over. Do the car batteries have this problem solved? Or will you get incrementally less range every time you charge the car? How does it deal with freezing temps? How about summer heat?

Yep the battery degrades slowly over time and you will lose range. There are services you can use to track the degradation. Using fast charging and charging the battery to 100% will hurt the life more. So most owners charge to about 80% unless you know you will need to drive further.

In cold and extreme heat you will lose range. The battery operates most efficiently at certain temperature ranges so the car will heat up or cool down the battery to keep it in this range, this uses more power.

The problems will probably always exist. The biggest one I see is the battery degradation. We need to properly recycle the batteries. Plus how do new batteries fit into the equation of the electric cars being better for the environment. The battery has a huge impact on the environment so if by the time the ev is offsetting that impact you need a new one... Not sure on the stats or data but its a complex issue.

I personally think synthetic fuels would be a much better alternative

Like ethanol? I thought I heard that synthetic fuels really aren't much better for the environment.

 

[Hack]

It just seems like a way to force lower income people to live in the cities and use public transportation. In other words, better control over the population.

ICE vehicles last a long time and retain a lot of residual value. The average age of an ICE on the road today is something like 11 or 12 years. EVs are nearly throwaway once the battery is cooked. They aren't going to last like the ICE vehicles do. People who don't have a garage can't recharge an EV. The infrastructure doesn't exist to charge EVs to run a similar number of miles that ICE vehicles currently do on a daily basis. Used EVs are not going to have high value like used ICE vehicles can.

They are already talking about pollution that tires generate. EVs will be a target because they generate lots of tire pollution. Even more of the wealthy or people with good jobs are probably going to get priced out of easy commutes in the future. Cheap private transportation might be going away.

 

[shogun32]

I heard that synthetic fuels really aren't much better for the environment.

depends WHICH synth-fuel.

The most sane config with economically sound technology available TODAY is Thorium (from coal) nuclear reactor (it doesn't have fuel piles that MOST be cooled for decades) and it also burns legacy nuclear waste. Couple that with technology going back all the way to WW2 to reduce coal via (optionally improved) Fischer-Tropsch to create non-oil-based diesel and gasoline.

We have how many centuries worth of coal in this country alone? And it would also go a long way to putting a dagger in the economic importance of the entire middle east.

 

[speedfrk]

Yes, the motor is simple but the cooling system is far more complicated. That is the cooling system for your energy storage. Gas storage is simple by comparison, orders of magnitude simpler. The number of computers in an electric are far greater than in an ICE. What you remove in mechanical simplicity in an ICE you replace with IC chips and software in an EV.

the only difference is that when you have a coolant leak in an ICE, you simply overheat. In a BEV, you can catch fire. An overheating battery is no joke.

EV's are way less likely to catch on fire than ICE or Hybrid. This may change as more get on the road and are involved in more crashes, but so far, you are way better off in an EV.

https://www.kbb.com/car-news/study-electric-vehicles-involved-in-fewest-car-fires/

 

[Cory S]

Top trim camry is ~$36k. Model 3 performance with incentives is about $40k.

But yes the tesla has to drive for many years while living in a place that has clean electricity to get to be better than a gas car.

You are arguing with things I agree with haha. My point is car guys will hate on electric cars then own a boring daily car. They hate electric cars because "electric is boring".

Trust me. I’m the king of owning a boring daily car, but at 39-41mpg every tank, my 2017 Corolla costs me almost nothing to drive. It’s just about paid off as well.

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