Covid Shots

[sk47]

You are being intellectually lazy. I've pointed to the tip of the iceberg, go do some research if you want to take on the CDC (and my arguments). I do know some answers, for others I rely on the experts that I have pointed to again and again in this thread.

You continue to only offer your opinion about your intuitive feelings on the subject.

It is you making the extraordinary claims.

Hello; Well, I accept your surrender. You do not have an answer. Good enough, or I suspect as good as we will get from you. A sad thing is you consider yourself superior and are a part of the medical establishment as well. At least you ceased calling us names for a time. Thanks for that.

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[CJJon]

Hello; Well, I accept your surrender. You do not have an answer. Good enough, or I suspect as good as we will get from you. A sad thing is you consider yourself superior and are a part of the medical establishment as well. At least you ceased calling us names for a time. Thanks for that.

What answer are you looking for? I provided you plenty of information that you discounted. Not my ideas, but from the CDC. So....I am not sure you will ever be happy.

Frankly, your manner of communicating is confusing to me. Perhaps if you could create a more cogent question I might be able to enlighten. Maybe some bullet points perhaps?

 

[sk47]

What answer are you looking for? I provided you plenty of information that you discounted. Not my ideas, but from the CDC. So....I am not sure you will ever be happy.

Frankly, your manner of communicating is confusing to me. Perhaps if you could create a more cogent question I might be able to enlighten. Maybe some bullet points perhaps?

Hello; Question simplified and presented another way. Is the immune response from a vaccine better/stronger than an immune response from a natural infection?

 

[peoples1234]

Hello; Question simplified and presented another way. Is the immune response from a vaccine better/stronger than an immune response from a natural infection?

The immune response from an mRNA vaccine can be more precise than from a natural infection. Reference post #296 on page 20 of this thread. So stronger probably isn't the right word, but better might be.

 

[CJJon]

Hello; Question simplified and presented another way. Is the immune response from a vaccine better/stronger than an immune response from a natural infection?

The short answer is we don't know. We do know that infection with wild-type Covid is far more dangerous than the vaccines, which are quite safe and predictable in efficacy.

This is not a new idea, some vaccines induce better protection than the wild pathogen like pneumonia (the shot is better than the bug). Some vaccines effect the body much less like with the mumps which can be quite bad. (The shot is weaker than the bug)

Yes, it seems that the covid immune response is quite high in some individuals, but not so much in others. In fact, there is a huge dynamic range (200-fold).

So, for now, with what we now know, vaccination is recommended for almost everyone on the planet.

 

[CJJon]

The immune response from an mRNA vaccine can be more precise than from a natural infection. Reference post #296 on page 20 of this thread. So stronger probably isn't the right word, but better might be.

Safer and more predictable.

 

[Hobohunter]

You mean there was a time when good ol USA wasn't in debt? Let's see, it has continuously had a fluctuating public debt since its Constitution went into effect on March 4, 1789. So no, your kids or grandkids will not pay for it either.

Technically, you're wrong. The overall gist of what you're saying may be true, but maybe try a quick googling before you assert something so strongly.

https://www.history.com/this-day-in-history/andrew-jackson-national-debt-reaches-zero-dollars

 

[RPDBlueMoon]

Hello; Well, I accept your surrender. You do not have an answer. Good enough, or I suspect as good as we will get from you. A sad thing is you consider yourself superior and are a part of the medical establishment as well. At least you ceased calling us names for a time. Thanks for that.

I'm not sure what you are trying to get at by asking doctoral thesis questions.

The immune system is extremely complex and you are way oversimplifying things. The immune system is comprised of different cells like, CD4/CD8 cells, lymphocytes(which there are different types of), and then there are different classes of T-cell receptors, there are specific areas that interact with the virus like the paratope and epitope on the cell. The cells express different proteins called cytokines when activated which have different cascading effects. That is only the tip of the iceberg.

Different viruses interact with your immune system in a different way. There are different types of viruses such as mRNA and DNA viruses. Measles spreads throughout differentky than the flu. The measles vaccine works different than the measles virus itself. There are discoveries that are still happening with existing viruses like how the flu puts you at increased risk for a heart attack and how it causes atherosclerosis. I only know this information because I worked in a lab last year looking at the effects the flu had on T-cell receptors. This stuff isn't common knowledge. There is no point to inundate someone with this amount of information because it's pointless unless they can follow along.

There is a steep learning curve to understanding the information and it took me awhile until I fully understood and even then I only knew what was relevant to the research project. Throw in the process of antigens, development of antibodies, epitopes and paratopes, and it is becomes very specific. You won't find a quick answer, you have to go into the literature

The point is you are asking specific questions, expecting answers as if there are infectious disease doctors or immunologists here when there is not. Just because you are part of the medical establishment or have experience with it doesn't mean you can play 100 questions and answer everything, especially on a novel virus like COVID.

 

[Whitest Russian]

What the hell has happened here?

Vaccines are good. That is not an opinion that is fact. Unlike other approaches there is plenty of evidence that the covid vaccine works (from actual doctors that went to school not quacks that ramble on camera and upload that to YouTube).

Are people arguing about risk? Because literally everything that you do has risk and until you die your life is going to keep facing them.

 

[jtmat]

What the hell has happened here?

Politics and in some cases extremism. Which is why I don't waste too much time answering people on here any longer.

They use the dunning-kruger effect... they go to the far left top peak... and stay there. Happy place for them.

Hats off to CJ... LOL... keep up the good fight!!!!

RPD sounds interesting... I worked in a lab many moons back, but I don't talk about it much these days.

 

[Hobohunter]

What the hell has happened here?

Vaccines are good. That is not an opinion that is fact. Unlike other approaches there is plenty of evidence that the covid vaccine works (from actual doctors that went to school not quacks that ramble on camera and upload that to YouTube).

Are people arguing about risk? Because literally everything that you do has risk and until you die your life is going to keep facing them.

Your last sentence is a reason why people won't take this vaccine, though. If they're age group and general health put them in a bracket that has a really small risk of death then why get a vaccine for this disease? Especially a month or so back when the consensus was that the vaccine would only limit your risk of serious Covid symptons, and not affect your ability to spread the virus around?

Don't get me wrong, I've had the first shot and will get the second in a few weeks. I'm young enough and in good health and don't stand a serious risk from Covid, but don't mind getting the shot. I won't do the annual flu shot, though. I've had the flu once in 33 years, and it was not particularly bad. I've had more than my fair share of shots over the years, and have no problem being choosy with what I decide to get.

 

[sk47]

The immune response from an mRNA vaccine can be more precise than from a natural infection. Reference post #296 on page 20 of this thread. So stronger probably isn't the right word, but better might be.

Hello; thank you for an answer. My contention was someone with a natural immunity ought not need to get a vaccine. I wanted to understand if there is some clear reason for all to be vaccinated.

For some of the responses of others. I do get the immune system is complex and complicated to try to get into in a forum like this. I was trying to keep it on track about one particular item. That being the need to vaccinate those who have recovered from an actual infection. We have at the present time a limited supply of vaccine. Seems to me those with a natural immunity are safe for now. Use the vaccines for those who are not safe.

CJJON's response went into something very different that what was asked about. I was not implying people ought to be infected to get an immune response. Rather many tens of thousands have already been infected and recovered during the past months. They did not get infected on purpose to be sure, but they are survivors. Survivors who should have a naturally acquired immune response right now.

I thought my question was simple. Why do those currently with a natural immunity need to be vaccinated at all in a general sense and more currently why should they be in line now when there are not yet enough doses to go around?

 

[Whitest Russian]

Your last sentence is a reason why people won't take this vaccine, though. If they're age group and general health put them in a bracket that has a really small risk of death then why get a vaccine for this disease? Especially a month or so back when the consensus was that the vaccine would only limit your risk of serious Covid symptons, and not affect your ability to spread the virus around?

Don't get me wrong, I've had the first shot and will get the second in a few weeks. I'm young enough and in good health and don't stand a serious risk from Covid, but don't mind getting the shot. I won't do the annual flu shot, though. I've had the flu once in 33 years, and it was not particularly bad. I've had more than my fair share of shots over the years, and have no problem being choosy with what I decide to get.

Vaccines aren't just for the benefit of the person getting them. They also benefit everyone that people interact with.

 

[Hobohunter]

Vaccines aren't just for the benefit of the person getting them. They also benefit everyone that people interact with.

Except for this one, at least until about a week ago. The general consensus was that this vaccine wouldn't prevent you from spreading Covid. That only changed very recently.

 

[CJJon]

I thought my question was simple. Why do those currently with a natural immunity need to be vaccinated at all in a general sense and more currently why should they be in line now when there are not yet enough doses to go around?

Because much is not known about the natural immunity from covid and it varies wildly. Which has been stated before.

Everyone should be in line because right now that is deemed to be the best practice given the novel nature covid. It is better to provide a vaccine with a known response than to rely on wild-type immunity which may leave some at risk.

Also, your basic premise that all natural infection provides the best possible immunity is wrong.

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