Carbon Wheel Experience Regarding Damage

[kilobravo]

Good info, Harry, thanks.

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[BillyJRacing]

There's nothing wrong with customizing and modifying cars. I do it all the time and it's the greatest part of being a car enthusiast. Mustangs are the most modified car in history with the biggest aftermarket industry supporting it.

It's easy to understand how the voodoo is special and a significant component that differentiates the GT350 from a regular GT. It's not as easy to understand the benefits, impact and significance of the GT350Rs carbon wheels or bespoke Cup2 tires.

There's nothing wrong with swapping out your motor or wheels and tires. But justifying it with reasons that aren't true is kidding yourself and continues to spread misinformation on the actual benefit of a given component.

Putting the front splitter, copy of the R wing, and R springs/dampers/bars and similar weight AL wheels of similar size to a GT350R on a regular GT350 will not make it as fast or as good as an R. The wheels make that much of a difference.

As far as street ability of the bespoke Cup2 tires, I almost always make it a point to look at what tires are on a car that's equipped from the factory with Cup2 when i see one wild on the street in any state I'm traveling in. I rarely ever see a GT3, GT2, and especially a Z06 which has one of the least street friendly daily driveable Cup2s out there, with different tires. IMO, for most people, the "concern" of driving a GT350R, and especially the new 2019+ GT350 (with a far more street friendly Cup2) is blown well out of proportion when looking at Cup2 equipped cars driving on the street all over the country. Yes there are exceptions and if you're driving in snow, I applaud you for driving your car no matter what, and buying the proper tires needed to do so.

On that note, I often see $100-500k exotics with silly wheels and some of the worst, crappiest tires that kill the performance of their car, and can possibly make it dangerous to drive. But anyone can do whatever they want to their cars, but for those who are somewhat educated will realize how dumb it is. Similarly I'm not a fan of the super stretched and cambered "stance" dad, but I respect people's differing tastes and am happy to at least see people enjoying cars.

Swap your engine, swap your wheels, swap your tires. Do what makes you happy. Just don't kid yourself that it's going to be "the same", or spread misinformation that it's just as good or no different. Be happy in your personal choices and do what brings you joy.

 

[shogun32]

Those production numbers include all pre-production and exec company R models as well and suggest that the overall % of owners that have experienced issues with either Cup 2 tires and/or CF wheels is very minute.

I don't see how you could assert that. What is the percentage of R owners who are members of this board? If you have THAT number and then count the number of forum members who have posted about broken wheels, only THEN could you hope to make any guess as to overall failure rates.

There are a mere 36,249 members on this board out of 524,000 Mustangs sold since 2015. So you could say at most 7% of owners are members here. If you extrapolate to Shelby owners it might be as high as 10% because of self-selection. My guess, the failure rates are between 1.5 and 3 percent but could easily be higher. I realize the 60+ year olds are taking over FaceBook but folks with $$$ for Shelbys are not exactly the 'digital' generation by any stretch.

 

[50 Deep]

The problem with your previous post, and this one, is that you continue to spread misinformation about carbon wheels either intentionally (because selling AL wheels is your part-time business) or unintentionally and carelessly (because you apparently didn't read my article or read my posts). If you did read my reply, you would understand that:

The benefit of carbon wheels can be felt any time you are turning the steering wheel at speeds above 45mph, and you do not need to be anywhere near the limit of handling, or even corning hard to feel the difference in steering feel, communication, feedback, and precision.

Your constant comments that someone needs to be driving at the limit, or 'making that 45mph lane change faster than any other car" is outright false and must be either intentional or out of your own lack of personal experience and inability to read my comments.

It's not that I "feel" like removing the carbon wheels "somehow" degrades the car's overall capability and many other subjective aspects of the driving experience. It absolutely does.

It's like removing the 526hp FPC 5.2L engine in favor of a 460hp CPC 5.0L engine because of the fear of some Voodoo engines having problems.

Will it hurt performance? Yes.
Will it take away from the subjective sound that makes the GT350 special? Yes.
Will it no longer be a >100hp/L incredible engine thats a key part of what makes a GT350 special? Absolutely.
Can a GT350 owner do it? Of course, it's their car and they can do whatever they want.
Will it still be a "true GT350" - I don't think so.

How many GT350R's are out there? How many have problems and what % of the owners is that?

As I said before, if you live in an area with craters for pot holes, then daily driving a GT350R probably isn't the best choice in general, and running a cheaper set of wheels has some validity. But in most of the country, this isn't a problem. If you don't know how to drive and constantly curb wheels, those are inexpensive repairs and you're going to do that to your AL wheels too, which will need to be repaired. It's not a good excuse but whatever makes someone have less stress probably isn't a bad thing.

Overall i'm just trying to stop the spread of misinformation and ignorance on carbon wheels. Judging by this thread, there's still a lot of education that needs to be spread throughout the community (especially of carbon-wheel GT350R/GT500/GT owners).

Anyone can do whatever they want with their cars. Just don't spread misinformation that you need to be driving fast, hard, or pushing the limits to feel the benefit of carbon wheels, because that's completely false. Read the article to learn more:

https://motoiq.com/tested-carbon-revolution-carbon-fiber-wheels/

That’s where I have to draw my line in the sand. I think you might be emotionally over invested in the carbon wheel issue. Someone with your level of experience calling anyone that disagrees with you about the carbon wheels supremacy a liar or fool is telling. Metric based arguments are great, but the daily driving considerations of the over 200 GT350/R owners I’ve personally worked with plays a much larger role than you may be willing to consider.

Caliper clearance issues, cost of repair, difficulty in finding shops to service the wheel, inability to drive in wet/cold on the SC2 are all real issues. Not mentioned yet is the 20x11 square rotatable setups that track enthusiasts often prefer to have. No misinformation there.

I totally understand the metrics for the carbon wheel and do not negate them. Many race inspired components like carbon ceramic brakes do well on paper, but they aren’t all that suitable for daily use. All the corvette guys replacing their carbon rotors with steel blanks have already been down this road. The carbon is an awesome wheel and has some definite performance benefits. However, those metrics for some are not worth the added stress it brings or limitations it places on enjoying the car. Myself and many others taking those wheels off are included. That isn’t misinformation either.

Give enthusiasts a setup they can drive 100% of them time and enjoy over a setup I can drive 50% and they will choose on their own. You can keep pushing the metrics, I will talk to people about their everyday enjoyment of the car.

In any case bench racing and forum banter is fun. But I can see when it’s getting unproductive. We can have a beer at the Track Tour and talk about it some more.

 

[BillyJRacing]

That’s where I have to draw my line in the sand. I think you might be emotionally over invested in the carbon wheel issue. Someone with your level of experience calling anyone that disagrees with you about the carbon wheels supremacy a liar or fool is telling. Metric based arguments are great, but the daily driving considerations of the over 200 GT350/R owners I’ve personally worked with plays a much larger role than you may be willing to consider.

There is no 'emotional investment' beyond the desire to prevent the spread of misinformation. I'm sorry that you are offended that I am pointing out your misunderstandings and lack of knowledge of carbon wheels.

I'm not calling anyone who disagrees with me a 'liar'. I'm calling those (you) who continue to spread misinformation as either:

1) intentionally doing it out of an underlying bias (such as you making money selling wheels) or
2) a continued lack of education and interest in reading the article or my posts that explain why your misinformation is incorrect.

*If you want to continue to have an educated conversation, please read the article first.

I have said multiple times that you do bring up valid reasons for someone to put on less expensive wheels for street use, and only argue against your false claims that you can only feel a difference of the benefits of carbon wheels if you're pushing the car at or near the limit -which is outright not true.

I totally understand the metrics for the carbon wheel and do not negate them. Many race inspired components like carbon ceramic brakes do well on paper, but they aren’t all that suitable for daily use. All the corvette guys replacing their carbon rotors with steel blanks have already been down this road. The carbon is an awesome wheel and has some definite performance benefits. However, those metrics for some are not worth the added stress it brings or limitations it places on enjoying the car. Myself and many others taking those wheels off are included. That isn’t misinformation either.

Based off of your continued statements, it is clear that you do not understand the technical side or benefits of carbon wheels. Technically most professional race cars (excluding Ferrari Challenge cars) don't use CCBs, but rather carbon-carbon and it's a completely different technology.

Brakes are wear items and that's a bit different than a wheel, which outside of motorsports, typically aren't wear items.

Give enthusiasts a setup they can drive 100% of them time and enjoy over a setup I can drive 50% and they will choose on their own. You can keep pushing the metrics, I will talk to people about their everyday enjoyment of the car.

In any case bench racing and forum banter is fun. But I can see when it’s getting unproductive. We can have a beer at the Track Tour and talk about it some more.

In all reality, most magazine journalists can't get within 3-5 seconds of the car's capability, and many 'track guys' can be double-digits off the ability of the car. There are also people who complain about not getting more than 4-5 track days out of a given set of tires, they are also usually nowhere near the limit because most cars when driven at the limits, will burn any tire out after around 100-150 track miles. That's not to be offensive, but rather observant of facts.

Having said that, the ability to rotate tires to maximize tire life when driving in these conditions is indeed a benefit. Driving on a square setup that's not ideal for the construction of the tire and setup of the car can be financially beneficial. Driving on a slower tire that may last longer when not driven at the limit may make a lot of sense to many. Putting a bigger wing, and racing slicks on could indeed make the car faster than stock. There's nothing wrong with any of this, and that's again the great thing about the community, is that people can do what they want and what best fits THEIR NEEDs.

But there's a difference between catering to the differing needs of the community, and promoting something though spreading misinformation, such as an AL wheel of similar weight will handle, feel, communicate, need the same camber (it will need a lot more), and perform the same as CF wheel - IT WILL NOT (and it will be slower on track). Or that you have to replace a carbon wheel if you scuff it against a curb - YOU DO NOT have to, and it's an relatively inexpensive repair. Or that you have to drive anywhere near the limit to feel the benefits of carbon wheels - YOU DO NOT.

I too am now a broken record, and this is a reason I don't usually post on these forums. Your wheels provide the answer to a lot of problems that I reiterated. Just stop spreading misinformation hinting or outright saying that it'll be the same because replacing the CF wheels, the FPC engine, or changing out the spring rates and aero of a GT350R WILL lose a lot of the aspects that makes the car so praiseworthy and great.

If the trade-offs are worth it for a given owner and their situation, then there is nothing wrong with going with what works best for THEMSELVES -as long as they have the tools to make an educated decision. I just hate seeing people make decisions when they don't fully understand what they are doing or the ramifications of their decisions when jumping on the bandwagon of ditching their amazing wheels out of a lack of understanding how important a role it plays to make a GT350R (or 500 carbon) what it is.

Besides, replacing the GT500 CF wheels will probably have a bigger impact and hurt the performance, feel, communication, and feedback a lot more than replacing a CF wheel on a GT350R.

I think i'm done here because there's enough information, and links to the article for more information, for a person who really cares to make an educated decision.

 

[shogun32]

If the trade-offs are worth it for a given owner and their situation, then there is nothing wrong with going with what works best for THEMSELVES -as long as they have the tools to make an educated decision. I just hate seeing people make decisions when they don't fully understand what they are doing or the ramifications of their decisions when jumping on the bandwagon of ditching their amazing wheels out of a lack of understanding how important a role it plays to make a GT350R (or 500 carbon) what it is.

I'm not seeing the point of the rants back and forth. If a significant cross-section of drivers be they 'track guys' or 'journos' lack the skill to maximize the usage of the car regardless of it's wheel setup, what makes you think they do in fact appreciate or even detect the maybe (not so?) subtle differences between the choices? If their lap times are the same, or their comfort with the car dynamics are the same no matter which wheels are spinning, then QED the wheels perform "the same" whether you happen to agree/like it or not.

When discussing driving on city streets and highways the "specialness" or performance "advantage" of CF wheels is likely nil if not negative.

If 'R' owners are electing to buy AL rims for whatever reason that's all that matters - no amount of "but the amazing CF is what makes the 'R' so special" matters one iota. And anyway it's 30 minutes of work and they can slap the 'amazing CF' back on. Unless '50 Deep' is fielding angry comments from 'R' owners that "he misled them" you (Billy) don't have a dog in this fight, so why keep beating this drum?

Besides, replacing the GT500 CF wheels will probably have a bigger impact and hurt the performance, feel, communication, and feedback a lot more than replacing a CF wheel on a GT350R.

That's a hell of a lot of conjecture! And so what if someone chooses to put AL rims on their $72,000 car? How is it any of your concern? Should the forum become inundated with "I slapped AL rims on my GT500 and now it totally sucks ass" posts, you're welcome to #ToldYaSo.

 

[BillyJRacing]

I can't say much more without repeating myself. If you won't read my posts stating multiple times that you can feel the difference between carbon and AL wheels on the street in normal driving, I have nothing for you.

And it's not conjecture if it's 1st hand experience.

And your right. Educating the community and debunking misconceptions does nothing for me personally. I do it for you guys, but there are always people with chips on their shoulders or other reasons that justify not putting effort in to help the community. In reality its in my best interest not to be on here.

 

[shogun32]

And it's not conjecture if it's 1st hand experience.

You've driven the as-yet un-released GT500 on both the factory carbon and some "equivalent" AL rims back to back on street and track? And you've likewise mind-melded with other 'less skilled" individuals who have done the same. And then also turned around and repeated the experience with a GT350 under like conditions?

 

[BillyJRacing]

You've driven the as-yet un-released GT500 on both the factory carbon and some "equivalent" AL rims back to back on street and track? And you've likewise mind-melded with other 'less skilled" individuals who have done the same. And then also turned around and repeated the experience with a GT350 under like conditions?

All of your answers can be found here:

https://motoiq.com/tested-carbon-revolution-carbon-fiber-wheels/

(Too of page 2). And quick answer: yes

 

[shogun32]

All of your answers can be found here:
https://motoiq.com/tested-carbon-revolution-carbon-fiber-wheels/

Right, I had previously read the piece and enjoyed it very much.

But you are hardly an "average" driver. You're assuming every tom, dick and harry who scrapes up $72 large has the same butt-o-meter as you do or has even a similar appreciation for "special". Highly unlikely. I'm not (nor anyone else?) discounting your assertion that the CF wheels are indeed a crucial part of the "experience" in the abstract. But that doesn't mean everyone values that "experience" in the same manner.

It's not like Ford is only giving out cars to people who are "worthy" of ownership. All that matters is if they have the green. Therefore as far as blitzing interchanges at 70mph or tooling around Broad street, there are probably quite a few people who can't (nor care) about any differences there might be between CF and AL.

So what if they are drowning in their unrecognized ignorance?

 

[BillyJRacing]

Right, I had previously read the piece and enjoyed it very much.

But you are hardly an "average" driver. You're assuming every tom, dick and harry who scrapes up $72 large has the same butt-o-meter as you do or has even a similar appreciation for "special". Highly unlikely. I'm not (nor anyone else?) discounting your assertion that the CF wheels are indeed a crucial part of the "experience" in the abstract. But that doesn't mean everyone values that "experience" in the same manner.

It's not like Ford is only giving out cars to people who are "worthy" of ownership. All that matters is if they have the green. Therefore as far as blitzing interchanges at 70mph or tooling around Broad street, there are probably quite a few people who can't (nor care) about any differences there might be between CF and AL.

So what if they are drowning in their unrecognized ignorance?

Since the world we live in demands instant gratification and everything given to them without putting in any effort into actually learning about something, in addition to the multiple times I stated that you can feel it on the street, nowhere near the limit, i'll take this from the last page of the article (you really should give the whole thing a read):

"Overall, the improved response of the car made it feel like I was on a more aggressive, stickier tire. Or as if either the car had stiffer sway bars or suspension bushings. The difference was quite noticeable and you don’t have to be a racecar driver to feel it. I’m sure pretty much anyone who enjoys driving would be able to tell a difference."

To clarify even further: Pretty much anyone who enjoys driving (no you don't have to be anywhere near the limit) would be able to tell a difference. It's a key component that journalists of all abilities have raved about the steering feel and handling of the GT350R & Ford GT.

Does your grandmother like driving?
Can she tell the difference between an EPAS vs hydaulic steering car? -Probably not. (but maybe).

Do you like performance driving?
Can you tell the difference before and after you change tires on your car?
Can you tell the difference between an EPAS vs hydraulic steering car?
Can you tell the difference between normal vs track mode in your Magneride equipped car?

*If you answered yes to any of these, then you most likely will be able to tell the difference between AL and Carbon wheels.


Ok i'm putting the spoon away. I don't know what more I can do.

 

[Sagittaria]

I've had my GT350R wheels damaged (and repaired) on three occasions.

1. By dealer when replacing cracked PS2 tires on delivery/warranty. Inexperienced tech used a metal tire dismount/mount.
Outcome: 3xrepaired/blended. 1xreplaced.
2. By supercar shop putting tire on above replaced rim. Experienced tech left something on the bottom of the dismounter and scratched the backside by 360 degrees.
Outcome: 1xrepaired/blended (backside)
3. Me lightly curbing one rim
Outcome: 1xrepaired/blended

IMO for these rims it's really not that big of a deal. The CF is amazingly resilient and all three occasions the weave was not compromised whatsoever. It was paint and the epoxy layer that was damaged.. And for the GT350R it's just black gloss paint. Amazingly easy to just sand, paint, and blend. Unless you're really looking for it with a magnifying glass you can't even tell. Rim repair places are very good.. especially if you find one specializing on high end stuff.

The GT500 will be different though since the wheels are cleared. But take the above for what it's worth. The GT350R cars are 70k cars... a base Porsche 911 is 90k starting. I'm all about taking care of my vehicles but not to the point of stashing the wheels away to take out on special occasions. IMO these cars aren't Ferraris. Even the Rs. In 10 years they're going to be 30k cars just like the 07-2012 GT500s... great holders of value sure but nothing to write home about.

I'm going to drive and enjoy my car. It's a Mustang. Great value and good fun. Not a 200k Ferrari.

 

[BillyJRacing]

Spyder has done some amazing repairs to exposed carbon Ford GT wheels. Chips and messed up areas look perfect when repaired.

 

[obspsd]

You've driven the as-yet un-released GT500 on both the factory carbon and some "equivalent" AL rims back to back on street and track? And you've likewise mind-melded with other 'less skilled" individuals who have done the same. And then also turned around and repeated the experience with a GT350 under like conditions?

It is in your best interest to be quiet.

 

[Dub347sbf]

Way ahead of you..... I'll be getting another set of signature wheels for the 500. I have 2 sets for the 350Rs and am very impressed with the quality.

Oh, and as for carbon fiber wheel damage? Been there done that. I wrote an article on it here in the 350 section. A picture is worth a thousand words. These wheels are an issue waiting to happen. Have a look at the clearance.

I'm assuming yes, but do the CF and base wheels have the same clearance?

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