Below MSRP?

[chaoscentral]

1. The Haggling game dealers play

Trust me as a car salesman myself we do not enjoy this at all. It's the only business where the customers seem to think the business shouldn't be making any money. You don't go into walmart and ask for their best price on a flat screen TV and then ask them to cut that by 20% just for shits and giggles. Then why should it apply to an automobile purchase. I'd be very happy if everyone just walked in and paid sticker like at Tesla.(Which the people that point out how much they love the Tesla sales model are the first to ask for some ridiculous discount) Would make my job alot easier instead of having commandos come in and nickle and dime you for everything just so they can brag to their friends about the amazing deal they got.

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[Cruzinaround]

Trust me as a car salesman myself we do not enjoy this at all. It's the only business where the customers seem to think the business shouldn't be making any money. You don't go into walmart and ask for their best price on a flat screen TV and then ask them to cut that by 20% just for shits and giggles. Then why should it apply to an automobile purchase. I'd be very happy if everyone just walked in and paid sticker like at Tesla.(Which the people that point out how much they love the Tesla sales model are the first to ask for some ridiculous discount) Would make my job alot easier instead of having commandos come in and nickle and dime you for everything just so they can brag to their friends about the amazing deal they got.

I agree. I do think the dealers can and should make money and still be transparent. Without haggling. And if the incentives could just be looked up and offered beforehand, even dealer to customer incentives as well as manufacturer to dealer passed on to the buyer. It could change the whole experience. Or if online tools were leveraged better and there was less of a dysfuntional disconnect with a service like true car or edmunds... Then a lot of those stereotypes would just go away.

 

[drmustang]

OMG, a car salesman thinks he is in the "only" business where a potential buyer resists paying full retail and offers less. Simply amazing, but keep in mind that your car salesman could have been slingin hash at Bobs Big Boy last week.

 

[Cruzinaround]

^BAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

So funny... But, so literally true.

On the other hand there are also many seasoned veterans who are on both sides of the fence leaning either towards Sleazy and Greedy or Honest and Ethical.

 

[drmustang]

^BAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

So funny... But, so literally true.

On the other hand there are also many seasoned veterans who are on both sides of the fence leaning either towards Sleazy and Greedy or Honest and Ethical.

Oh yeah, there are some good professional sales guys out there. There are however enough goons to perpetuate the stereotype. I've always felt that the salesman's attitude and demeanor is a direct reflection of the owner/managements mindset. A jagoff salesman is a huge red flag and good reason to deal elsewhere.

 

[Cruzinaround]

Excellent point. Employees to a Business owner are like Children to a parent. They become a reflection of the latter. In Practice, Ethics and Mannerisms. All a reflection of the source from whence it came.

I know when I first went into my dealer the saleswoman I spoke to said it wouldn't be unusual to see the GT350 sell for maybe $500 under MSRP from an honest business owned by an honest Business man.

I told her MSRP and the allocation fee would be fair enough for a new model release from a brand recognized like Ford. Then I spoke to the owner.

Definitely a good customer satisfaction oriented man reflected in the employees he surrounds himself with. This is the type of business that builds a good reputation along with a good dedicated following with a strong grass roots growth of addition clientele in the form of friends, and family of existing clientele.

There are actually a few of these people here on this forum. Unfortunately they are tethered by the limitations of these allocations. So once they are tapped out of available product....All we have left are the stereotypes to deal with. Oddly those stereotypes also gladly raise their hands announcing their embrace of the unethical practice in the name of whatever excuse of the month is most popular and expect a pat on the back for it. Both GM's and Salespeople. Ya just gotta shake your head.

 

[5.0Fireman]

Trust me as a car salesman myself we do not enjoy this at all. It's the only business where the customers seem to think the business shouldn't be making any money. You don't go into walmart and ask for their best price on a flat screen TV and then ask them to cut that by 20% just for shits and giggles. Then why should it apply to an automobile purchase. I'd be very happy if everyone just walked in and paid sticker like at Tesla.(Which the people that point out how much they love the Tesla sales model are the first to ask for some ridiculous discount) Would make my job alot easier instead of having commandos come in and nickle and dime you for everything just so they can brag to their friends about the amazing deal they got.

It's all about the reputation car dealers have made for themselves in the past century. The stereotype is that they will lie and try to take advantage to make the sale. I know a lot of places aren't like that but a lot are. While shopping for my GT I stopped by my local BMW dealer which sold me 4 cars in the past. Everyone picked up in Munich, beaten on at the Ring and babied back home. All of them were at a decent discount mostly set by BMW. Now, all of a sudden my dealer says " nope, not below ED msrp " . I called a forum dealer 5 minutes later and was able to negotiate 1k above invoice (M3)without any loyalty. But I was so bothered by the first dealer down the street that I cancelled the whole thing and started looking at other brands. Next came VW/Golf R, dealer gave a great deal for a limited (in stock)car but said, VW does not allow us to order cars for customers. We take what they send us. Knowing that was total BS, I walked. That night watching Velocity, I saw the Mustang, said "shit I have x-plan with them". Went in next day, x-plan minus 2k in rebates, and done. People just don't want to feel like they are being taken for a ride unnecessarily. If my dealer, or any, were to honestly offer me a little discount on a 350, I would happily take it. I hate the way Ford packed it, but I would get over it. What I wouldn't pay is over msrp or even msrp, because it's called "suggested" and we all know there is wiggle room plus many other benefits. For now I'll enjoy my GT and play the waiting game. I'm willing to bet this time next year a few are sitting on lots.

 

[krt22]

OMG, a car salesman thinks he is in the "only" business where a potential buyer resists paying full retail and offers less. Simply amazing, but keep in mind that your car salesman could have been slingin hash at Bobs Big Boy last week.

Also the only ones that feel content to mark up over MSRP when they are the only avenue between the manufacturer and customer. Its not like you see walmart charging extra for the latest xbox/PS5/funny toy kids must have etc

 

[R 350 gt Donson]

Also the only ones that feel content to mark up over MSRP when they are the only avenue between the manufacturer and customer. Its not like you see walmart charging extra for the latest xbox/PS5/funny toy kids must have etc

:amen: Its first come first served....:shrug:

 

[Wblv17]

More common then you think. I know of one dealer (now retired and sold the dealership last December) in Sacramento who did this. He was big on never over "MSRP" and didn't want to ruin his reputation...so he often sold the "limited" cars to other dealers for above MSRP (he made money) before they ever reached the lot ...his clients never saw the car on the lot with an over MSRP sticker on it because it was never there...Yeah he could have made "more" but it was a way of making extra $$ and still keeping the dealership's never over MSRP reputation.

what my dealer owner did with the 07 shelpy was as soon as it arrive unload it the back and put in covered trailer and take it to his house, then it was shipped over seas. He has already claimed the one 350 that the dealer is getting for 16.

Local small dodge dealer just got 4 Hellcats allocated when the week before they where told they where getting 0. I'm going to wait for this all to die down. Hopefully a 2017 for me.

 

[krt22]

Its times like these that make Tesla's business model so attractive. First come first serve, what you see is what you get fixed price.

The manufacturers make more money, the consumers in the end likely save more money, not sure why such an archaic business model is still being used for one of the largest segments of our economy.

 

[Spa2k]

That's easy: The dealers pay a lot of local and state taxes, they employ a lot of people, they support a lot of kids' and charitable organizations in their communities and they have powerful lobbyists.

 

[VoodooMaster]

I understand it very well, kind sir. Perhaps too well. In fact I know there are Market studies in progress now to confirm just how bad the entire process is with the dealerships.

I'm not speaking specifically about the process with dealerships. I'm speaking in general about market economics and the effect of supply and demand on both listed and transaction prices

No I'm not the market. "We" are the target demographic for said product. The Manufacturer Bean counters already suggested pricing based on speculation for what the car should sell for. They get paid a LOT of money to make these projections in order to remain profitable for their company and absorb the costs of production. We already know what the dealers are paying for the car. And we know what we should pay for the car. There's nothing to estimate the prices are there and transparent for all to see. So when you see a sticker for over....WE did not set that price. A single guy did based on his projections of how much he feels he can land a whale for. So in effect a single person is responsible for those jacked up prices... not the public because at the moment there is no line around the block to buy a car that does not exist for public consumption yet.

I did not say the WE set the price on the sticker - that is the asking price, set by the dealer (perhaps "a single guy" at that single dealership). WE take part in setting the transaction price. There's a big difference when it comes to this type of purchase.

A single guy is not responsible for those "jacked up prices". There are many many guys at many many dealerships responsible for those jacked up prices. And the so-called "whales" that actually pay those prices are also responsible for those prices. But guess what. Those whales are part of WE. They are part of the market that includes you and me and many many other people willing to pay less than us. That's exactly my point. The whales are part of the market demand. There are fewer of them, but there are also few or the cars available (at least initially). Demand and Supply.

Yep looks that way. But those aren't sold yet. Those are ordered. Those same commitments can fall through between now and the day the car hits the ground or those same people can source the vehicle from a dealer with more realistic prices. Nothing is done yet. And when it does get finalized...who knows?... There might be one or two cars sitting on a lot because the buyers felt like they were getting screwed and balked.

I'll give you that one. You're right about that - they are not sold yet. Not a transaction at this point- just intent with an agreement.

REALLY? Hmmm. I don't remember when I was a salesman ever not knowing what my selling bottom price was and I always remember the frustration of playing the haggling game to allow the buyer to believe they were getting a deal by NEGOTIATING for a lower price than what was on the sticker, When I already knew what I wanted and steered the buyer into my target pricing pocket. IN REALITY The buyer sets nothing in an automotive transaction. You as the buyer are led to believe you do. So again its the OTHER guy that sets the price and knows the wiggle room and plays his hand with everything in his favor to get what he wants. To think anything otherwise is extremely naive.

That is absolutely laughable. You contradict yourself. The terms negotiating, pricing pocket, and wiggle room are admissions that the buyer has some effect on the transaction price.

And do you think that buyers don't walk in with their own pricing pocket and wiggle room? Buyers generally have a price they would like to pay along with the highest price they're willing to pay. Just like dealers have a price they would like to get and a minimum price they are willing to accept.

The seller presents his sticker price in anticipation of a negotiation knowing what the real price is. If He gets the asking price....job done...whale landed. If he drops a bit... Job done, still sold in the pocket he anticipated. He will allow the buyer to walk before going below the NON-Transparent real selling price.

Yes, and the same goes for the buyer. The buyer comes in and presents his offer price - say invoice. If he gets his offer price....job done. If he goes up a bit... Job done, still buys in the pocket he anticipated. He will walk before going above his NON-Transparent maximum he is willing to pay.

Of course a great salesman - or perhaps bad one depending on your perspective - may be able to push someone above their original ceiling. But at some point the buyer WILL walk.

Do you REALLY not see that this is a two way street? It takes two to Tango. Both sides are instrumental in setting the final price.

I agree with you only if that dealer outright purchased the vehicle. Then its theirs to ask any price for any subjective reasoning and negotiate with the interested party. If they are working on credit...it's technically not really theirs, they are a middle man entity representing .... the people I really want to buy the car from.

Does that mean I can't choose and negotiate the selling price of my house - because I have a mortgage?

Yes, the dealerships generally work on lines of credit. But the manufacturers consider the vehicle sold when it leaves the factory. The dealership owns it and the manufacturer will not take it back (although they help the dealers move excess inventory with manufacturer sponsored and funded incentives). The only way they'll take back the inventory is if the dealer doesn't make good on the line of credit (e.g. bankruptcy). Kind of like my mortgage company and my house. So I don't see your point here.

With the state of negotiable pricing at dealerships today, people looking for below MSRP (and without the right connections) will have to wait until the demand of the "whales" and those willing to pay MSRP is met by the supply of the cars. When (and if) that happens, cars will be available below MSRP.

 

[healntoe]

MSRP = manufacturer SUGGESTED retail price. We seem to forget this when a new, highly in demand piece like the GT350 hits the market. Simple supply and demand economics dictates that those who want it most will pay the highest price -- such is true even if one of us jumps at the chance to pay the window sticker price! We all know that in 6 months the market will be stabilized and one can be had at a discounted price.

I say all of this to say why do many get worked up over ADM when this is the pattern that is constantly repeated and realistically it's fair and right. You make a conscious decision to part with your hard earned cash to be first!...or you choose to hold on to your cash and wait. An automobile dealership is a speculative business and many of them barely make it. Most car deals are "mini deals" resulting in a few dollars of GP and every now and then, some money can be made on selling a new car. This while
a dealer hopes to make "stair step" bonus money by stringing together many mini deals (that system varies by franchise) in a month, but if they don't , then they must get creative in the other dealership departments to remain profitable...all while keeping employees paid keeping millions tied up in inventory (car and parts)...and yes, hold back money comes with every deal but that is many times eaten up by interest paid on inventory that sits or is sometimes passed along to a customer to get a deal done. Food for thought when trashing a local dealer who wants to make money on someone who is willing to fork it over to be first!

 

[Tim Hilliard]

MSRP = manufacturer SUGGESTED retail price. We seem to forget this when a new, highly in demand piece like the GT350 hits the market. Simple supply and demand economics dictates that those who want it most will pay the highest price -- such is true even if one of us jumps at the chance to pay the window sticker price! We all know that in 6 months the market will be stabilized and one can be had at a discounted price.

I say all of this to say why do many get worked up over ADM when this is the pattern that is constantly repeated and realistically it's fair and right. You make a conscious decision to part with your hard earned cash to be first!...or you choose to hold on to your cash and wait. An automobile dealership is a speculative business and many of them barely make it. Most car deals are "mini deals" resulting in a few dollars of GP and every now and then, some money can be made on selling a new car. This while
a dealer hopes to make "stair step" bonus money by stringing together many mini deals (that system varies by franchise) in a month, but if they don't , then they must get creative in the other dealership departments to remain profitable...all while keeping employees paid keeping millions tied up in inventory (car and parts)...and yes, hold back money comes with every deal but that is many times eaten up by interest paid on inventory that sits or is sometimes passed along to a customer to get a deal done. Food for thought when trashing a local dealer who wants to make money on someone who is willing to fork it over to be first!

LOL You should be banned for such logic. #HowBoysWithBigPantsDoBusiness

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