BBQ tick - another attempt to understand

[GT Pony]

For all '11-19 Coyote engines, I personally believe the tick is oil cavitation but the loose tolerances and/or sloppy production means each car has a varying degree of it. There are a lot of guys that don't have it at all. Then there are many owners like me that occasionally get a cold idle tick but it's completely gone when the car's warm. And of course there are guys with a bad, loud tick that is very frequent and never goes away. Too much oil cavitation can absolutely damage an engine so that's why there have been some engine replacements. But a small amount of oil cavitation is virtually harmless and why we see some Coyotes running strong at 100k miles with a tick. Diesels can experience the typewriter sound too and there are plenty with 200-300k miles running well.

I also think the Gen 3 Coyote tick is more prevalent due to the higher compression ratio.

To me, the only thing Ford can do to control this "issue" is to manufacture the engines to more tightly held tolerances (better GD&T?). Of course, this would dramatically increase the cost of the engine and is probably why the beancounters prevent it. But, don't forget that a high revving DOHC 4V V8 is very expensive with a lot of moving parts. This ain't no 5.7L Hemi. And now the Gen 3 with duel fuel injection and the plasma liners...you can almost understand why Ford doesn't spend more on manufacturing. Either way, this would never prevent me from buying the car, as the number of actual damaged engines due to the tick appear to be minimal.

If the BBQ tick is oil cavitation in the bearings, why don't a bunch of other makes of engines also tick from oil cavitation? Is there something so different about Ford journal bearings (specifically the Coyote based design since other Ford engines don't BBQ tick) that Fords are the only ones that tick from oil cavitation. I doubt it.

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[Catax]

What rental company have 2018+ gt's? pretty sure they all have 2017's ? Any search on google yields nothing and all show 2017 and below.

Avis and Hertz around SFO, SJC, SEA. 18' Mustangs are a dime a dozen.

 

[Condor1970]

If the BBQ tick is oil cavitation in the bearings, why don't a bunch of other makes of engines also tick from oil cavitation? Is there something so different about Ford journal bearings (specifically the Coyote based design since other Ford engines don't BBQ tick) that Fords are the only ones that tick from oil cavitation. I doubt it.

It happens a lot in Ford Powerstrokes too. They say it's an inherent sound in their diesel engines. Sounds identical. Since the Coyote is now approaching compression ratios close to diesel level, it may very well be the same kind of issue.

 

[ihc95]

If the BBQ tick is oil cavitation in the bearings, why don't a bunch of other makes of engines also tick from oil cavitation? Is there something so different about Ford journal bearings (specifically the Coyote based design since other Ford engines don't BBQ tick) that Fords are the only ones that tick from oil cavitation. I doubt it.

Many Duramax and Powerstroke engines make the same exact sound. As far as your second question, you'd have to ask a Ford ICE engineer.

 

[GT Pony]

Many Duramax and Powerstroke engines make the same exact sound. As far as your second question, you'd have to ask a Ford ICE engineer.

My point was why do only Ford high compression ICE and diesel engines tick from oil cavitation in the bearings (if that's the actual cause) and other high compression engines (which there are many) don't?

Besides, when the BBQ tick happens it's at idle with basically no load on the rods and crankshaft. So I doubt the compression ratio has anything to do with it.

 

[ihc95]

My point was why do only Ford high compression ICE and diesel engines tick from oil cavitation in the bearings (if that's the actual cause) and other high compression engines (which there are many) don't?

I already said it could be because Ford doesn't spend as much on the machining and overall manufacturing of the powertrain to hold tight enough tolerances. The fact that so many different engines make different noises is evidence to support that theory.

 

[accel]

I am also installing passenger side oil catch can. Everyone says you only need passengers side as it really draws a lot of oil in this engine.

Vast majority of engine extra wear connected to bbq tick also happens on the passenger side. Cylinder walls or road bearings almost always cyl 3 or 4.

Coincidence?

Bbq tick also often resurfaces almost instantaneously after the oil change. Could it be new oil getting into righ side cylinders, increase compression, burn somehow differently? Or, maybe because new oil is poured on the passenger side it somehow is easily pulled into vent system during first engine start after the oil change?

 

[GT Pony]

I already said it could be because Ford doesn't spend as much on the machining and overall manufacturing of the powertrain to hold tight enough tolerances. The fact that so many different engines make different noises is evidence to support that theory.

Well, obviously it's some kind of a clearance problem - I've said that for the last four years. That's why some tick, and others don't.

I highly doubt oil cavitation in journal bearings is a function of clearance. It sounds like it's more a function of oil viscosity, as the article below indicates that higher viscosity oil makes cavitation more likely. But some guys with a slight case of the BBQ tick reported the ticking stopped with thicker oil, so it doesn't add up. If thicker oil caused more cavitation, then the engines running 5W-50 (GT-500, Boss 302, Rousch S/C cars, GT-350) would all be ticking like crazy. Every engine on the road uses journal bearings, so if oil cavitation was that common seems other car manufacturers would have some ticking engines. I can't believe only Fords tick from oil cavitation in the journal bearings.

Plus, per the articles linked below on oil cavitation in bearings, it can cause bearing damage. But if some of these ticking engines have made it well past 100K miles without damage then is it really oil cavitation?

The oil cavitation theory also doesn't support adding of some Ceratec making the tick disappear.

https://www.machinerylubrication.com/Read/779/journal-bearing-lubrication

"Selecting an oil which is too high in viscosity can also increase the likelihood of cavitation.

The high and low pressure zones, which are created within the oil on each side of the area of minimum film thickness, can cause oil cavitation in these bearings. Cavitation is a result of expansion of dissolved air or a vapor (water or fuel) in the low-pressure zone of the bearing.

The resulting bubble implodes, causing damage, as it passes through the high-pressure portion of the bearing. If the implosion or collapse of the vapor bubble occurs next to the metal surface, this can cause cavitation pitting damage to the metal. If the implosion of the bubble occurs within the oil, a micro hot spot or micro-dieseling can occur, which may lead to varnishing within the system."

 

[GT Pony]

Bbq tick also often resurfaces almost instantaneously after the oil change. Could it be new oil getting into righ side cylinders, increase compression, burn somehow differently? Or, maybe because new oil is poured on the passenger side it somehow is easily pulled into vent system during first engine start after the oil change?

I've linked a few threads in other posts from bobistheoilguy about how new oil can strip the layer of anti-wear additives off engine parts. So that could be why the BBQ tick shows up right after an oil change. It also explains why the BBQ tick subsides some as miles are put on the oil, and why Ceratec or the XL-17 Ford once used makes the tick disappear, because a layer of anti-wear additives is built back up and cusions parts fron each other.

I still think the BBQ tick is caused by excessive rod side clearance and/or excessive crankshaft end play.

 

[Condor1970]

I am also installing passenger side oil catch can. Everyone says you only need passengers side as it really draws a lot of oil in this engine.

Vast majority of engine extra wear connected to bbq tick also happens on the passenger side. Cylinder walls or road bearings almost always cyl 3 or 4.

Coincidence?

Bbq tick also often resurfaces almost instantaneously after the oil change. Could it be new oil getting into righ side cylinders, increase compression, burn somehow differently? Or, maybe because new oil is poured on the passenger side it somehow is easily pulled into vent system during first engine start after the oil change?

I think it has more to do with removing the carbon build up with the new oil. The reason XL-17 seems to alleviate the tick, is because it's primarily carbon that cushions the impact of whatever components are tapping together.

 

[accel]

I think it has more to do with removing the carbon build up with the new oil. The reason XL-17 seems to alleviate the tick, is because it's primarily carbon that cushions the impact of whatever components are tapping together.

might be this. in either event, occ ordered.

 

[Condor1970]

might be this. in either event, occ ordered.

I'm thinking of getting one too. Nothing wrong with separating the recirc gunk from getting sucked into the intake.

 

[bootlegger]

I am also installing passenger side oil catch can. Everyone says you only need passengers side as it really draws a lot of oil in this engine.

Vast majority of engine extra wear connected to bbq tick also happens on the passenger side. Cylinder walls or road bearings almost always cyl 3 or 4.

Coincidence?

Bbq tick also often resurfaces almost instantaneously after the oil change. Could it be new oil getting into righ side cylinders, increase compression, burn somehow differently? Or, maybe because new oil is poured on the passenger side it somehow is easily pulled into vent system during first engine start after the oil change?

More likely a coincidence, as the first oil change generally comes around the time the engine is fully broke in and all the parts are finally seated. There are also extra additives in your factory oil fill that aide with break-in. These could affect ticking noises. In the 2018, the piston scuffing isn't correlating strictly to one side.

 

[stangman638]

I still think the BBQ tick is caused by excessive rod side clearance and/or excessive crankshaft end play.

If it is indeed this, why don't they all tick from day 1? why would it start at 100 miles, 2000 miles or 4000 miles?

 

[Supersolo]

I've scanned through the thread, this is in advance of my MY19 GT being delivered later this month, for an early March, U.K. registration.

While I've been looking forward to owning a V8 Mustang, the reports of what I would consider to be unusual engine noises, obviously concerns me.

@TheLion.
I've appreciated what seems to be copious quantities of work in your posts, although they are too volumous for me to really get the most from them.
Might there be any chance you could give us a condensed over view of your research, results and your conclusion, in less than 30 lines?

@spogshd.
Thanks for posting, it seems you may be a Ford tech or know one?
Some interesting info, especially the cylinder compression test and the slight play on the valve followers on Cyl 3?

My impression so far is the lower compression readings on Cyl 3 & 4 might indicate excessive piston/cylinder wear?
Might that be because of poor oil supply, low oil pressure or both?
Or valves not seating sufficiently well??

If those comments carry any merit, then I'd be reluctant to use a thicker engine oil as this may exacerbate pressure and/or supply issues?
Until more evidence is revealed, I think the tick is possibly "piston-slap" in cyl 3 & 4?

While this has been a mostly informative thread, I'm left wondering what I will now do.
Here's some thoughts, I'd appreciate any constructive comments.

I'm thinkng of getting a cylinder compression test on my engine, as soon as I get the car, delivery miles.
That may at least establish a base line?

I read comments about ~100 miles to seat the piston rings?
I am therefore thinking about getting ~100 miles on the engine and then adding ceratec to counter any excessive wear resulting in piston-slap.
After which I would do 1500 miles "run in".

I plan to use the Ford spec 5W20 oil, fully synthetic, produced by Motul.

Cheers.

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