BBQ tick - another attempt to understand

[Cobra Jet]

Are you going to pull the pan again and check the torque specs to see if any of the hardware has become loose?

I’m still curious (as are others) as to how the one mechanic came up with totally different clearances than the other? Where they using different tools, or possibly not measuring from or in the same areas?

Sponsored

 

[TheLion]

Just thought I'd share this which I post in another thread. Here are some more possibilities for solid lubricant solutions (having more than one choice is in my opinion better as you can tailor your solution to your application):

Guys, found several other possible solutions. Here's one that's undergone extensive research and testing, it's only the nano-ceramic additive without chemical lubricants. So it's a solid lubricant additive. I'm not sure if this is hBN based or something similar, but for what it's worth there is a lot of certified lab testing data with multiple real world engine tests and tear downs: https://shop.tribotex.com/pages/technical-reports

TriboTEX was originally developed with grants from DOD, NASA and DOE for use in alternative energy applications, in particular reduced friction in wind turbine gear boxes to increase the energy capture. As I've said before, oils SUCK at boundary layer lubrication. They do not lubricate very well in gear boxes, cams, timing chains etc. but do lubricate very well for hydrodynamic bearing applications like rod and wrist pin bearings or even cam shaft bearings that ride on fluid films.

There are substantial losses in the 5.0L just due to friction. As I've been saying all along, higher revving engines with more cams are going to see larger benefits are their frictional losses are greater. That's one advantage of Cam In Block designs like the GM 5th Gen LT1 6.2L and Dodge 6.4L engines, they have half the valve train frictional losses that a DOHC variant has. Absolutely they would benefit from hBN or other nano-particle boundary layer friction modifiers, however their benefits would be smaller due to less inherent losses from friction in the valve train.

Another one i've found is Archoil. It is more or less a US made competitor to Cera Tec. It's also hBN based and suspended in a Ester Group V base oil, so in my opinion it is a higher quality variant than Cera Tec which is suspended in a Group III base oil. I'm not in any way knocking Cera Tec and there's no reason you couldn't switch over later on. Cera Tec is still a great hBN additive and will still perform very well, but I would expect Archoil to outperform Cera Tech due to the Group V Ester base oil alone if all other additives were relatively equal. All of these nano-particle additives say they are compatible with all available motor oils and also other additives as they are chemically inert (at least the solid lubricants are). Certainly you don't want too much or too little of anything. I would recommend picking one and sticking with it as opposed to mixing.

https://www.archoil.com/products/ar9100-oil-additive

I'm very interested in all three, but most interested in TriboTex because it is a solid lubricant additive only. It does not contain any chemical additives and was heavily researched with funding from some major players for energy harvesting applications. All of these additives are nano-sized particulates, so there's no issues with common automotive oil filters, even fine 1 micron diesel filters have pours 10x larger than the particulates. Not going to clog the filters or affect flow efficiency, nor are they going to clog oil passage galleys. More or less the provide a micro-coating function that creates an extremely low friction surface and act as a sacrificial layer with low shear aka they have high lubricity.

There has been one DOCUMENTED case where a Ford Field Engineer specifically told an OP to use carbon powder additives (no specific brand) to quiet down or eliminate the "BBQ Tick" in a Boss 302 that was on it's 2nd engine, yes it's 2nd engine also started ticking. Neither engine had ANY drive ability issues either, it was replaced due to the ticking. They ran just fine for reference and the additive did solve that issue. We also have multiple OP's now who have used Cera Tech successfully to quiet down various engine noises, some are BBQ Tick sufferes, others are 2018's that just want to quiet down normal mechanical noise form the HPFP and valvetrain. So at this point we have 3 widely available possible solutions all based on nano solid lubricants whose primary purpose is to enhance boundary layer lubrication which current motor oil formulas are still lacking in.

Cera Tec - most affordable solution, but also lowest quality base oil which is a Group III. Now remember that most off the shelf synthetics like Mobil 1, Valvoline etc. are mostly made up of Group III's with a good additive package and maybe some small percentage of Group IV or even Group V oils mixed in, so it's not a sub-par, it's just not as good as other dual action chemical + solid lubricant friction modifiers.
Archoil - similar to Cera Tech but is suspended in a Group V Ester base oil which is of the highest quality base oil (well that an PAO's). Also made in the USA and widely available.
TriboTEX - solid lubricant only, so it is the most "compatible" as it contains no base oil which can mildly alter oil viscosity and oil properties. Highest concentration of solid lubricant relative tot he other two. Supposed to last for 40,000 miles and you DO NOT loose any chemical lubrication benefits with an oil change unlike the other two which loose their chemical protection once the oil is changed. I'd expect TriboTEX to have the most consistent performance over it's service interval for those reasons.

There is one other benefit of solid lubricants, they provide enough added protection via coating that in the case where oil pressure is lost for a short period of time and the hydrodynamic bearings collapse (aka your rod bearings have metal on metal contact), then the nano film will provide short term protection that could save your rod bearings if you catch the issue in time and stop driving the car.

Benefits of solid lubrication enhancement of common motor oils:

1. Increased boundary layer lubrication reduces heat generated from friction.
2. Increased boundary layer lubrication reduces resistance (energy loss) from friction, aka better fuel economy and more power.
3. Increased boundary layer lubrication reduces wear rates as the solid lubricant is a sacrificial wear item, just like motor oil is.
4. Self polishing effect of solid lubricants increase the seal of the piston rings and oil control rings which provide two benefits, first being reduced blow by so your oil's base number stays higher longer (aka less acid contamination / thinning), second being lower oil consumption as the control rings are more effective at removing oil from the cylinder walls (remember oil sucks at boundary layer lubrication in the first place, so the oil itself is not doing much for your rings / cylinder walls, only solid lubricants will have any meaningful effect)
5. Chemically inert, so it won't interfere with existing additives already in the oil such as Zinc or Molybdenum etc.

I've seen some well documented data for both Cera Tech and TriboTEX with performance cars seeing gains of around 3-5% power to the wheels as well as countless reports of slightly increased fuel economy while cruising. Usually on the order of 1-3 mpg depending on the car and it's application including a 2013 F-150 (same as my parents have) with a 5.0 V8 gaining 1 mpg after just several hundred miles of use.

Most people are creatures of habit, so while driving conditions vary, my own experience yields a very consistent average fuel consumption in all my vehicles day to day and week to week. So 1, 2 or 3 mpg increase is generally consistently measurable in long term averaging.

Other than cost, I see no down side. All of them report reduced noise, from lash adjuster noises to other mechanical noises. So I think any of the three solutions would work for the BBQ Tick or Type Writer Tick assuming it's cause is the common big end side to side clearances and not something more serious.

So we have Cera Tec, TiboTEX and Archoil all of which are great solutions. I may try Cera Tec in my Prius C and TriboTEX in my Mustang GT and see how that goes. Amazon carries all three I believe. Also note many people report a very slight increase in oil pressure, due to better sealing, which would also affect mechanical noise.

The BBQ Tick generally disappears once you get past around 2,500 RPM in most GT's that have it. So slight increase in pressure at a given RPM may create more a cushion for the bottom end and that may be the primary reason for the noise reduction, at least that's my current theory.

I post a lot. Get over it.

 

[spogshd]

I’m still curious (as are others) as to how the one mechanic came up with totally different clearances

I don't know why I wasn't there but I was there when the inspector did his measuring, hes the best in the field that eveyone uses here in the UK and wins 99% of his cases. On this occasion he was satisfied everything was in spec.

 

[spogshd]

Here is something else to look at. We pulled the coil on cylinder 3 and could not get the engine to tick, we also pulled all the others one at a time but only cylinder 3 made a difference.

 

[TheLion]

Also for reference, you could use either the standard TriboTEX mix or their heavy duty concentration which they market towards both Diesel applications but also high powered sports cars such as Corvetts, 911's, V10's and other high output engine applications.

 

[TheLion]

Here's some research on TriboTEX, it's not Hexagonal Boron Nitride like Cera Tec, but instead a modified Magnesium Silicon Hydroxide nano-particle. What's interesting in the research is that it shows a significant decrease in wear and friction with both increased load and RPM but shows little benefit at lighter loads and lower RPM.

That would quite ideal for the Coyote 5.0L in the Mustang given it's high RPM operation where frictional losses are greatest, especially one that sees spirited driving. Here is a white paper (separate from TiboTEX's own independent published lab results) on MSH.

There's always more than one way to skin a cat as they say. MSH or hBN, both are nano sized dry lubricants which significantly increase boundary layer lubrication of motor oils and they out perform ZDDP which is part of the additive package of most motor oils and has been for many decades. However there is an optimal ZDDP concentration and it's very inadvisable to increase the ZDDP content of your motor oil. 1. Too much ZDDP actually increases wear 2. Too much ZDDP causes catalyst damage. I have not found any adverse effects reported for hBN or MSH regarding catalyst and nBN is has been listed as tested safe. Not sure about MSH yet regarding cats.

https://www.stle.org/images/pdf/STLE_ORG/AM2017 Presentations/Tribochemistry/STLE2017_Tribochemistry III_Session 8D_K. Gao_Comparative Tribological Properties of Modified Magnesium Silicate Hydroxide.pdf

However, under the condition of 600N-600RPM, the MSH containing oil presented a better anti-wear performance than that of serpentine. In addition, the WSD of MSH containing oil decreases with the increase of speed or load.

 

[TheLion]

Also of note you would actually likely need to use their Diesel formula. I'm confirming this now with them, but higher compression ratios and soot interfere with it's ability to bind. You also need adequate concentration to properly coat the surface areas, a DOHC 5.0L V8 with an 8 quart capacity is going to need at least double the concentration of a 2.0L DOHC 4 Cylinder with a 4.5~5 quart oil capacity.

I'm guessing Cera Tec may exhibit similar behavior and you need to use 600mL of Cera Tec to achieve optimal concentration. Too little of content will provide almost no discernible benefits. Too much (depending on how much) I'm not sure is harmful, but will present no further increase in benefits as was shown with hBN testing or may mildly increase friction as with ZDDP.

My vehicle is a diesel. Will your product still work?
Yes, we have shown that TriboTEX works in diesel engines when used at about 3X the concentration as in gasoline engines. If you want the same effects in your diesel engine, apply 3X as much TriboTEX as you would for a gasoline engine.

This is because diesel engines have a much higher soot content and a higher compression ratio. This combination interferes with our nano material's ability to bind to the metal surfaces inside the diesel engine, so more is needed to effectively get the same results as those observed in gasoline engines.

We may be announcing a stretch goal for a special formulation for diesel engines in the next update...

I wouldn't expect much higher soot in a high compression gas V8, but compression ratios are higher to be sure as is blow by, so that would make sense as to why high powered cars are recommended to us the "Diesel" concentration levels. But it's pricey, $190...supposed to work for 40k miles. And yes, MSH is also considered a "Ceramic Nanoparticle" just like hBN.

 

[spogshd]

He is going to send a scope into number 3 cylinder and do a compression test later on.

 

[spogshd]

Scope didn't reveal anything. Compression test, 6 bar on 1, 2, 5, 6 number 3 got 5.25 bar and number 4 got 5.75.
couldn't get to 7 and 8 tonight.

 

[AmericanV8Guy]

I just posted this on another GT tick thread (the one with the poll) but I definitely have an issue, and so I'm giving my $.02. Feel free to read or skip, just sharing what I have experienced in regards to this issue.

""So an update on my end:
Before anything, if you are near Santa Barbara County, CA, DO NOT GO TO PERRY FORD!!!! Don't waste your time there, as they definitely aren't worth it. Been getting the constant run-around from the sales aspect while purchasing a car, as well as the following service/support, despite having a 2 year old GT, that I purchased new, with less than 15K miles, and still entirely covered by my warranty".

Here are the details. As previously stated, I've had the "tick" for quite a while. It seems like this tick is different for many owners. Some have an intermittent tick that isn't constant, that disappears after driving your car a few hundred miles, it heats up, etc... Not the case with my car. My car developed the tick at around 5K miles, and has just gotten worse. It is almost constant between 1,5-2K RPM, and I can EASILY hear it over my loud exhaust (Corsa extreme catback). I've brought it several times to Perry to have them look at it. The only thing they ever did was choose to swap my intake manifold, which I was puzzled by, as I knew it was in no way shape or form an issue with that part. One of the service reps also told me that it sounds like its coming from a loose camshaft, and will most likely need to swap my engine. Obviously, this was unsettling, and not something you want to hear with your two year old car. Keep in mind that my car is only 2 years old, with less than 15K miles on it, and is still covered by my warranty.

Well, I made an appointment with them this past Monday, as the issue seemed to be getting worse, as well as I had a new issue appear too (a clunk sound while letting off the gas/reapplying gas, as well as releasing the clutch, and NO its not the DS, as I know what that sounds like, and it's not this). Rolled up to the service area, told them the issues I was having, AGAIN. First of all, I told them that you could hear the issue WHILE IN GEAR/DRIVING! I told my service rep that I would gladly take him for a ride around the block to show him what I'm talking about. I also showed him a video that I took where the clunk sound as well as ticking is CLEARLY audible. What does he do? He tells me to start the car up and rev it. I told him that the issue I was having was while I'm driving. So of course, the tick is mild, and obviously you won't hear the clunk. Then he has the balls to say "well, seeing as you can't replicate the issue, I'm probably going to have to keep your car for 3 weeks to take a look at it". 3 weeks!!! Just to take a look! Not even including repairs! I told him that wouldn't work as I'm going out of country next week for about 3 weeks. He then said: "Great, because I don't need you bugging me by calling all the time (in a non-joking manner)". The only times I call are when A) they tell me that my car will be ready by X time, and I haven't heard from them by X time, so I want an update before they close shop on that day. or B) they say to leave the car for a few days, and I finally decide to call after not hearing a peep from them with some sort of update (even a "we're still looking" would be fine) for 3+ days. Needless to say, I didn't want to just leave my car sitting there for 3 weeks, ESPECIALLY when they won't be able to reach me via phone.

So, today I decided to drive to the next nearest Ford dealership, over an hour away. The dealership is Vreeland Ford in Buellton, CA. Let me just preface by saying that my mind was blown by the contrast of the quality of service offered by this dealership over Perry Ford of Santa Barbara. First of all, I made an appointment online. They called me to tell me that they were actually booked on that day. I told them that I was just wondering if I could bring it in for a diagnosis, gave her the issues I was having, and I could always bring it back to service it if need be. The lady on the phone said that was fine. So I rolled up today at the specified time, and started speaking with the service rep. He told me that Mike would jump in the car with me so that he could see the problem. I met Mike, and turned out that he wasn't a tech, he was the service manager. That alone amazed me. I never even met the service manager ONCE at Perry, despite having reoccurring issues with the car, and not being too pleased with the service I was having (also forgot to mention that they scratched my PP rims while changing tires..... and never did ANYTHING to fix it). So, Mike told me that he had a 15GT that also had the ticking sound. He told me that the problem with his (after spending quite a bit of time looking for it) was actually the tubes connected to the oil pump that would rattle and hit something, causing the tick sound. So, Mike and I drove off. Immediately after hearing the sound, he said that "tick" sound coming from my car was different than what he was expected, even said "that's annoying". He then told me to pull off into a residential street where there were many hedges along the road, so that the sound could reverberate off of them. To my surprise, he actually GOT OUT OF THE CAR, and stood there in the middle of the road, as he instructed me to drive up and down the road, while trying to replicate both sounds. I did this for about 5 mins. He immediately told me that yea, something was definitely wrong, and he could hear the "Clunk" while I turned around a few hundred feet away from him. So we get back to the dealership, and he then tells me that sometimes a "clunk" can happen because the wheels are loose. I thought that I doubt they are, but he decided to try tightening them himself, which he then proceeded to do, and we both saw that none of the wheels were lose. He told me to leave the car with him for about an hour, as he was going to put it on the lift, check the drivetrain, and check Oasis (which I'm assuming is some sort of Ford/Dealershup software, but I don't know). Keep in mind, this isn't just a service tech, but the SERVICE MANAGER!

I came back a little over an hour later, and my car was sitting there ready to go. Mike himself came to speak with me again. He told me that he couldn't find the issue, but that there was definitely an issue present, and that he wants to get my car in for repairs. He even said that he took out a GT350 they had, as apparently (and this is news to me, and didn't get what exactly the issue was), there is a certain sound that the GT350s make that sounds similar to what I was experiencing, so he wanted to see if it sounded similar to that (which it did not according to him). He then asked me if I ever had a CEL on with this car, which I told him I never have (and this is the truth). He said that he looked at my car's service records, and that Perry had apparently swapped the intake manifold because they put into the system that there was a CEL, which wasn't the case. Apparently (again, new to me), they do so in order to make themselves more money.... I then asked him what the next step would be. He said to make an appointment when I get back and they'll take it from there. I asked about how much time would it take to figure out what was wrong, he said a few days to get into everything, and to see in which direction to proceed. I told him that Perry said they would need my car fro 3 weeks. He then laughed and said that he doesn't want my car on his lot for three weeks, probably due to liability.


So, basically, during the short time I was at Vreeland Ford (compared to the hours spent dealing with Perry Ford), I met the service manager, he listened to my concerns, took the time to experience those concerns first hand by driving with me (without me even asking to do so), took a look at the car despite being booked with other appointments, acknowledged that there was clearly two separate, non-normal issue going on, told me an appropriate time frame for the work that would need to be done, and what the next step should be. I have NEVER received any of that kind of service or attention from Perry. I have been given the runaround countless times (both while purchasing and servicing my cars), disrespected, kept in the dark, and obviously ( and news to me) was lied to for their own monetary gains. The service rep from Vreeland Ford told me before leaving: "Make sure to keep us in mind for any future business, even though I know it's a drive for you to get here". I told them I will gladly use them; despite the drive; as I am much more willing to give my service to a company/dealership that actually deserves it. Granted, Vreeland didn't fix the issue yet (didn't expect them to do so today), but at least they are taking all of my concerns seriously, and giving me a plan of attack.


So there you have it (minus a few things that were said that just support my displeasure with Perry, such as them not wanting to swap my engine out simply because they run the risk of eating the cost if Ford finds out there is nothing wrong). A little bit of a rant, but figured I should pass on the word of warning, especially for those located on the Central coast/Southern CA. I will definitely post an update once I get my car in for servicing at Vreeland Ford, but I am already impressed by their want/need to go above and beyond with their services. So, thanks again for taking the time today guys! Especially Mike!! I certainly appreciate it, and it feels nice to actually feel valued as a customer. "

There you have it. I do hope that Perry sees this, and changes their freaking ways. Santa Barbara and it's surround cities is such a small city, that word of mouth is everything. Unfortunately, we don't have too many options in terms of dealerships, so they can get away with their shitty attitude/service. I'd much rather drive an 1+ hour to receive the service that I actually deserve as a paying customer, and that I expect from Ford. I'm just waiting for the whole thing to be done, but will most likely be sending (another) letter to Ford regarding the issue.""

 

[GT Pony]

So, Mike told me that he had a 15GT that also had the ticking sound. He told me that the problem with his (after spending quite a bit of time looking for it) was actually the tubes connected to the oil pump that would rattle and hit something, causing the tick sound.

That's a new one ... never heard that before. I think one reason you got super service at that dealer is because Mike is a Mustang enthusiast, so yeah, I'd be going to that dealership for sure.

 

[AmericanV8Guy]

That's a new one ... never heard that before. I think one reason you got super service at that dealer is because Mike is a Mustang enthusiast, so yeah, I'd be going to that dealership for sure.

Was a new one for me too. Obviously there was more to the explanation, but it made sense (just forgot some of the details). And you would think, but the service rep that I was dealing with at Perry Ford was also an S550 GT owner. But yes, will definitely be using them instead of my local one.

 

[spogshd]

The roller on number 3 has a lot more play in it than the others. Next thing is to take it out and strip it down but not until ford have said they wont do it under warranty.
So number 3 has lower compression, more play in the roller, and when the coil is disconnected tick goes away, can this be tied together in anyway.

 

[Cobra Jet]

What does the #3 spark plug look like?

 

[TheLion]

Just providing some more info here guys, this is from TriboTEX regarding why they chose MSH over hBN from Vladimir Borisov:

Your background knowledge on solid lubricant additives for high performance engines is impressive for a "hobbyist". I'm going to chalk that up to your engineering skills and technical curiosity. So, lets dive into the technical details and see what decision you want to make with regards to the solid lubricant you want to choose. I am not going to bore you with any sales and promotional details and just aim for describing the main differences in function and application between boron and MSH based coatings. (We are better of course.. otherwise what are we doing?) The real differences is the layer that we develop on the engine surfaces. MSH builds an irregular matrix substrate which is designed with a select group of catalysts to form deposits of carbon from the broken long chain hydrocarbons making a diamond-like carbon (DLC) capping layer. Boron nitride and in other forms actually will also deposit a layer of hexagonal rings similar to MSH and with very favorable friction reducing properties. The biggest drawback to hexagonal boron comes from its hydrophilic nature and the shear amount of material necessary to make a desirable coating. One of the issues with the water loving layer is that interactions with H2O actually increase the friction of the boron layers. This issue will be especially exacerbated by the water vapor that is a product in the combustion chamber. In all honesty we have not performed a durability test between our MSH and boron coatings but we have definite proof of coatings lasting up to 40K miles in engines we have treated.

Alex, told me you already made a decision. Thank you for choosing our product and do not hesitate to send in any questions you may have. We would love to hear your feedback.

Regards,

Vladimir

It appears that water is an issue with hBN. Now given that the hBN solutions are fairly diluted and suspended in other catalysts as well as a substantial amount of base oils, I don't believe water poses a particular problem in application. However TriboTEX has more ideal properties for a solid film lubricant due to that very reason and it is what I will be testing on my 2016 GT personally, I have already ordered some. For reference my GT does a bit of very mild ticking after an oil change for about 500~750 miles on average then it go away. So at this point I do not believe my bottom end is out of spec, but may be a little on the wider side of the tolerance range. I still have a suspicion that even "ideally" tolerances 5.0's all do it, but it's quiet enough that 90% of owners don't detect it.

Regarding the oil pickup tube, I don't doubt that but I highly doubt that is the "common cause" of the BBQ Tick. There are many types of issues that can cause intermittent ticking, rattling or knocking that result in nearly indistinguishable sounds from one another despite difference causes. There is a reason the Ford Field engineers suggested carbon powder additives and the only one I know of at this point that is just the additive with it's catalysts is TriboTEX.

hBN needs to be suspended in a substantial amount of base oil + catalysis to prevent the water absorption issue when it's delivered, until it bonds to the surface. So while it's not snake oil, it's not the most optimal and my suspicion is that water absorption is the primary reason it is always delivered in a base oil + catalysts as opposed to just with the catalysts. TirboTEX does contain a very small amount of Ester Group V base oil, however the amount of base oil carrier is very small compared to Cera Tec and Arch Oil. Small enough you will not need to drain any oil if it's already full.

You can also affect the concentration by using more until optimal results are achieved. It was recommended for high performance V8's to use either TWO tubes of the regular concentration or one tube of the Diesel variant which has 2x the standard concentration. Pricing is the same. If you buy direct from them, you'll get a magic little "spin the wheel" discount of 33%. Just a typical marketing gimmick. If you buy from Amazon you'll pay the full price of about $190. There's an immense amount of R&D testing done on MSH, so this isn't some back water snake oil solution, but it's also not magic. It's a boundary layer lubrication enhancement that can reduce losses due to common motor oil's boundary layer lubrication deficiencies. It's about cost and us "gear heads" are willing to pay a little more for the performance.

Vladimir seemed to indicate that the concentration of hBN necessary to achieve desirable lubrication was quite high compared to MSH as well. So given the same amount of lubricants, you can get away with less MSH to achieve the same results. However they do both provide similar levels of friction reduction when in optimal concentrations. At this point my research has lead me to Magnesium Silicate Hydroxide (MSH) based TriboTEX as being the best over all solution for solid lubricant additives. Which to some degree justifies it's price. Yes, a common variant of MSH is commonly know as Talc Powder, aka baby bottom powder, however there are many forms of MSH all with different properties, so don't go thinking it the same stuff.

However that does not mean that Cera Tec or Archoil are bad. They absolutely have some real and measurable benefits. However they are not the most ideal. You loose the chemical lubricants once your oil is changed and are left only with the hBN. I'm not sure if the hBN concentration is as ideal as the MSH concentration and if it's not, it's more difficult to adjust because it's suspended in a substantial amount of base oil, so you need to dilute your normal oil and it's additive package to adjust the hBN concentration.

TriboTEX is a metal surface treatment only using nano ceramics. Cera Tec and Archoil are both a metal surface treatment and oil friction modifier additive that does dilute you oil and it's additive package to a small degree. Cera Tec's carrier base oil is Group III where Archoil's carrier base oil is Group V Ester, so Archoil is of a better quality with more ideal properties than Cera Tec. I'll see how testing go with TriboTEX over the next few thousand miles before I recommend it. I may also test some Cera Tec in my wife's 2012 Prius C that has 95k miles on it. They are all compatible, so you may switch from one to another later down the road if you want to "upgrade".

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