Are long tube headers worth it ?

[GregO]

What might one believe the choke is for?

The question; are collector chokes still effective with full length exhaust systems ?

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[WildHorse]

The question; are collector chokes still effective with full length exhaust systems ?

3.5-4" collector to a 2.5-3" exhaust. There's your choke.

 

[GregO]

Moving on, if short cam timing preserves the lower power curve then wouldn’t 4V VVT negate the need for longer primary’s ?
Once again we have a thread where 2V header design is being applied to 4V VVT motors.
The dynamics are very different.

 

[WildHorse]

if short cam timing preserves the lower power curve then wouldn’t 4V VVT negate the need for longer primary’s

In a 4-valve VVT engine, the primary exhaust headers' length would still have a significant impact on the engine's performance characteristics, even with the ability to adjust valve timing.
Exhaust headers play a crucial role in controlling the scavenging effect, which helps to improve the engine's volumetric efficiency and overall performance. Longer primary headers can help improve low-end torque, while shorter headers can improve high-end horsepower. This is due to the fact that longer headers can increase the time available for scavenging, which helps to pull more exhaust gases out of the cylinder and draw in more fresh air and fuel.
While VVT can help optimize valve timing to improve performance across the RPM range, it cannot completely negate the need for appropriately sized primary exhaust headers. Instead, VVT and exhaust header design work together to optimize engine performance.
In summary, while VVT provides additional flexibility in optimizing engine. performance

 

[GregO]

@WildHorse
Did the Coyote development team get it wrong with their Catted 421 shorty while managing to extract 460, 480 and now DH@500 HP out of a factory 5.0.

 

[K4fxd]

Did the Coyote development team get it wrong with their 421 shorty while managing to extract 460, 480 and now DH@500 HP out of a factory 5.0.

The engineers spent a lot of time tuning these. I'd like to have an original set of prototypes.

 

[GregO]

The engineers spent a lot of time tuning these. I'd like to have an original set of prototypes.

Story goes one of the team members fabbed up the original 421’s in his garage/shop. The Ford bean counters had the tubular 421 headers on the chopping block but somehow common sense prevailed over that cost cutting metric.

 

[WildHorse]

Did the Coyote development team get it wrong with their Catted 421 shorty while managing to extract 460, 480 and now DH@500 HP out of a factory 5.0.

No.
I've said previous they spent a lot of time and money on coyote header development. I've also said multiple times you do not need LTH to make 500 NA horsepower with a coyote.

 

[WildHorse]

Story goes one of the team members fabbed up the original 421’s in his garage/shop. The Ford bean counters had the tubular 421 headers on the chopping block but somehow common sense prevailed over that cost cutting metric.

Correct.

 

[GregO]

Personally I don’t think the Coyote development team spent a lot of time on header development. Some CFD and routing obstacles to over come and a guy in his garage.
It’s a known fact 4V engine headers can be sloppy and still make good power. Add VVT to the 4V and the sloppy factor can get down right messy, relatively speaking.

 

[RAVAGE88]

In a 4-valve VVT engine, the primary exhaust headers' length would still have a significant impact on the engine's performance characteristics, even with the ability to adjust valve timing.
Exhaust headers play a crucial role in controlling the scavenging effect, which helps to improve the engine's volumetric efficiency and overall performance. Longer primary headers can help improve low-end torque, while shorter headers can improve high-end horsepower. This is due to the fact that longer headers can increase the time available for scavenging, which helps to pull more exhaust gases out of the cylinder and draw in more fresh air and fuel.
While VVT can help optimize valve timing to improve performance across the RPM range, it cannot completely negate the need for appropriately sized primary exhaust headers. Instead, VVT and exhaust header design work together to optimize engine performance.
In summary, while VVT provides additional flexibility in optimizing engine. performance

Mornin' Dude, you're using all the correct verbiage, but in the wrong places, have no real concept of the pressure-time relationship, and leaving out the more important aspects of fluid dynamics, but other than that, it all sounds great.

The bottom line is, headers are either a designed part of the overall system they're attached to, or they're not. The design doesn't have to fit a particular, misled narrative from those that really don't know but are lightning quick to step up and serve the forums as a voice of authority. The ones that are actually doing the work are the ones not bloviating about it on the internet because they're the ones that are actually on to something and pushing the envelope.

When it comes to dimensions of intake ports, exhaust ports, header tube diameter, etc., there's a belief that bigger is better without any regard to length and other important aspects of the system, but I really liked it when you threw in "volumetric efficiency."

I would say more, but I'm not emotionally involved in this, and won't be, but please ask more questions that would indicate a true willingness to understand. The "WTF was he thinking," tearing down of companies, people, etc., to further an arrogant narrative built around "I dunno" is what leads to more 50W oil threads.

Have a great Friday....

MB

 

[vaeevictiss]

So I’m deciding if long tube headers are worth the price N/A ? For the price of headers and having a shop install I can get my car wrapped a different color… I do like how they make the car louder and a little HP. Do you guys think it’s worth the price ? Or spend it elsewhere ?

IMO if you're not boosted its not worth it unless you just want to be louder. Don't get them if you're looking for more power because it will be minimal on a NA car. But its honestly not that much louder unless you go catless as well. I did the GESI cats on mine (oh but but you shouldn't run cats when boosted!!! W/e, there's dudes running these same cats on 1200whp cars just fine).

Sure, catless would be better. But i personally hate the sound of it. Every mustang I've heard without cats sounds like shit and ill die on this hill . Its not even that its just louder, it just sounds so sloppy and unrefined and the coyote is a beautiful sounding engine. Actually, best thing would be to install electric cutouts ahead of the cats so you can open them when tracking or just ripping on the car and close them any other time.

 

[Dave2013M3]

Well I bought the car new so I don’t have to smog it for couple years lol. Also their are other ways to pass wink wink

It's not so easy in Cali anymore. Something to consider.

 

[K4fxd]

Correct.

I still say some cost cutting happened and I'd like to see or have the original.

 

[K4fxd]

When it comes to dimensions of intake ports, exhaust ports, header tube diameter, etc., there's a belief that bigger is better without any regard to length and other important aspects of the system,

I don't remember anyone saying "bigger is better" in this thread. Just size the tube for the power of the engine, or more correctly the power of the cylinder.

Personally I don’t think the Coyote development team spent a lot of time on header development.

Actually they did. They are designed around the pulses so they help the next firing cylinder scavenge.

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