Another shady dealer

[RevvdMedia]

So I'm going out today to fix the failure of yesterday. It may have been a case of "I should have known better." The dealer I was going through (Freedom Ford in Edmonton, AB), was quite accommodating in the beginning of my search for information for the '15 Mustang.

On my first visit they answered all my questions, said there would be no problem with a test drive, and the sales rep I dealt with even "forced" me to go for a drive in a '14 GT just to "get a taste" even though I told him straight up I would not buy a '14. No problems.

On my second visit, I went in to look at the first one that landed, which I was originally promised a test drive in. The car was in the show room, I BS'd with the sales rep for a while (to keep everything on good terms) and then asked for the test drive. After all that, the sales manager said I cannot test drive because it's the only one on the lot, but I can test drive when more arrive. That sucked, but I got over it as I had already test driven at another dealer prior to that since I needed to get a drive before there was snow on the ground.

On my third visit, my regular sales rep wasn't able to make it, but someone who was equally as helpful and nice took me for a test drive. I didn't get to drive the GT since the dealer foolishly put the car into the parts bay to do some installs even though I had already called ahead of time for the test drive. I ended up having to drive an automatic EcoBoost, not at all what I intended to buy. I still did the test drive as I wanted to try it out in some snow to make sure it won't get stuck everywhere - which it fared well enough considering it was shod with 255 wide tires on high performance all seasons. I discussed some minute details with the sales manager, specifically on my trade in. Since I have X-plan, I knew the price would be fair and I'd be happy with it, but the deal was contingent on a FAIR trade in value. He told me the Black Book values have no bearing and that I'll probably get less than I want and should sell privately. I told him I understand wholesale vs. retail cost and I know the ballpark I expect.

On my fourth visit, I go in to actually make the deal. The sales rep offered me another test drive, in a GT this time, which I took as a last "just to be sure" measure. I was satisfied with the car, as expected. The sales rep took me to his office where he then went to the sales manager to put the order into the system to pull up pricing. They come back with a build sheet with pricing, which the sales manager has already put a price. At this point I don't have X-plan pricing even though I told them I intend to utilize it. The price they came back with was about 3000 off the MSRP, so I knew it was pretty close to X-plan, but I didn't know how much. I signed the form to only confirm the build was correct, but I told them I don't agree to that price yet. I then asked them to evaluate my trade in. They do the usual drive around the block and have the used car manager look at the car. My car is a 2012 Kia Sportage SX, only 1 trim ($2000 worth) less than full load, with lots of brakes and more than 1/2 tread on the tires, only 15,000km/yr average mileage and pristine exterior, pretty much an easy flip for them. The value they came back for my car was $16,000 which is about 3,600 to 5,700 less than the value range on Black Book. The sales manager made a call to the used car manager and we ended up at giving me 17,500 if I trade same day (which means I have no car for 2+ months), or 16,500 for a trade 2 months from now, that was their highest offer. I would have accepted "low" value on my car even though it's immaculate, just to get the deal done. The trade in was a no go since they low balled me. On the new car price, they showed me they're charging me 500 over invoice, telling me it was a better deal than X-Plan which was "2% markup" which would have been 840 over invoice. That is not true. X-Plan is Invoice minus 0.04% of invoice, plus 275 dealer fee. X-plan usually ends up around 200 over invoice, not 500 like they were offering me. On top of that, the dealer can only charge 100 in dealer fees, whereas it's free game without X-plan. After that, they wouldn't budge, and he didn't even offer me the X-plan price even though they explicitly stated in the beginning that they would.

Long story short, the dealer offered me 3-5k below Black book value and wouldn't budge, then continued to lie that their price offered was better than X-Plan, which it was not, and it allowed them to tack on more fees which was restricted when using X-Plan. They lied about a test drive I was supposed to be offered in the beginning. I will be only working a half day today and car shopping other dealers and hopefully finalizing and ordering today. With X-Plan in hand, getting a FAIR trade-in is all I ask for. I would accept even "low" value even though my trade in is definitely in "above average" shape and mileage. Let's see how it goes today.

Sponsored

 

[JeffreyDJ]

It really sucks that there are bad dealers out there. Best of luck today!

 

[Nanashii]

On the new car price, they showed me they're charging me 500 over invoice, telling me it was a better deal than X-Plan which was "2% markup" which would have been 840 over invoice. That is not true. X-Plan is Invoice minus 0.04% of invoice, plus 275 dealer fee. X-plan usually ends up around 200 over invoice, not 500 like they were offering me.

I think X-Plan is invoice - 0.04% of invoice + 275 dealer fee + marketing fee, so ~500 over invoice sounds about right.

There is an actual Ford build and price tool for X-plan which gives you the correct X-plan price.

 

[stulaw11]

So I'm going out today to fix the failure of yesterday. It may have been a case of "I should have known better." The dealer I was going through (Freedom Ford in Edmonton, AB), was quite accommodating in the beginning of my search for information for the '15 Mustang.

On my first visit they answered all my questions, said there would be no problem with a test drive, and the sales rep I dealt with even "forced" me to go for a drive in a '14 GT just to "get a taste" even though I told him straight up I would not buy a '14. No problems.

On my second visit, I went in to look at the first one that landed, which I was originally promised a test drive in. The car was in the show room, I BS'd with the sales rep for a while (to keep everything on good terms) and then asked for the test drive. After all that, the sales manager said I cannot test drive because it's the only one on the lot, but I can test drive when more arrive. That sucked, but I got over it as I had already test driven at another dealer prior to that since I needed to get a drive before there was snow on the ground.

On my third visit, my regular sales rep wasn't able to make it, but someone who was equally as helpful and nice took me for a test drive. I didn't get to drive the GT since the dealer foolishly put the car into the parts bay to do some installs even though I had already called ahead of time for the test drive. I ended up having to drive an automatic EcoBoost, not at all what I intended to buy. I still did the test drive as I wanted to try it out in some snow to make sure it won't get stuck everywhere - which it fared well enough considering it was shod with 255 wide tires on high performance all seasons. I discussed some minute details with the sales manager, specifically on my trade in. Since I have X-plan, I knew the price would be fair and I'd be happy with it, but the deal was contingent on a FAIR trade in value. He told me the Black Book values have no bearing and that I'll probably get less than I want and should sell privately. I told him I understand wholesale vs. retail cost and I know the ballpark I expect.

On my fourth visit, I go in to actually make the deal. The sales rep offered me another test drive, in a GT this time, which I took as a last "just to be sure" measure. I was satisfied with the car, as expected. The sales rep took me to his office where he then went to the sales manager to put the order into the system to pull up pricing. They come back with a build sheet with pricing, which the sales manager has already put a price. At this point I don't have X-plan pricing even though I told them I intend to utilize it. The price they came back with was about 3000 off the MSRP, so I knew it was pretty close to X-plan, but I didn't know how much. I signed the form to only confirm the build was correct, but I told them I don't agree to that price yet. I then asked them to evaluate my trade in. They do the usual drive around the block and have the used car manager look at the car. My car is a 2012 Kia Sportage SX, only 1 trim ($2000 worth) less than full load, with lots of brakes and more than 1/2 tread on the tires, only 15,000km/yr average mileage and pristine exterior, pretty much an easy flip for them. The value they came back for my car was $16,000 which is about 3,600 to 5,700 less than the value range on Black Book. The sales manager made a call to the used car manager and we ended up at giving me 17,500 if I trade same day (which means I have no car for 2+ months), or 16,500 for a trade 2 months from now, that was their highest offer. I would have accepted "low" value on my car even though it's immaculate, just to get the deal done. The trade in was a no go since they low balled me. On the new car price, they showed me they're charging me 500 over invoice, telling me it was a better deal than X-Plan which was "2% markup" which would have been 840 over invoice. That is not true. X-Plan is Invoice minus 0.04% of invoice, plus 275 dealer fee. X-plan usually ends up around 200 over invoice, not 500 like they were offering me. On top of that, the dealer can only charge 100 in dealer fees, whereas it's free game without X-plan. After that, they wouldn't budge, and he didn't even offer me the X-plan price even though they explicitly stated in the beginning that they would.

Long story short, the dealer offered me 3-5k below Black book value and wouldn't budge, then continued to lie that their price offered was better than X-Plan, which it was not, and it allowed them to tack on more fees which was restricted when using X-Plan. They lied about a test drive I was supposed to be offered in the beginning. I will be only working a half day today and car shopping other dealers and hopefully finalizing and ordering today. With X-Plan in hand, getting a FAIR trade-in is all I ask for. I would accept even "low" value even though my trade in is definitely in "above average" shape and mileage. Let's see how it goes today.

Actually some corrections.

$500 over invoice sounds in the realm of possibilities for X-plan.

MOST states allow dealers here in the US $100 in fees, but state law can trump that. Here in Florida they can charge whatever they want. I don't know about Canada.

They can also charge a $275 administrative fee. There is also a destination fee that X-plan pricing does not include- in the US its $825.

So $500 over invoice isn't a ridiculous price honestly.

https://www.fordpartner.com/partnerweb/jsp/howitworks/fordpartner_rules.htm here are some general references for X-plan rules

 

[Dary]

Since you will be waiting around 2 months to get the car, why don't you list yours for sale privately? 2 months are plenty to sell a used car.

 

[RevvdMedia]

Thanks for the insight on X-plan. Short of me not having that exact price in my hands, I could only find so much information. I did try to do as much research as possible.

Either way, I can stand to eat up a few dealer fees, but not accept 3K less than the lowest value my car should be worth. I went as far to find retail pricing and that based on averages, they stand to make 4-5K even if they had to put in $1000 into "reconditioning" which really shouldn't be necessary with my car. A windshield (which I would replace out of pocket if necessary before the trade) and a carpet clean around the front driver's mat, a wash and an oil change if they deem necessary and an inspection is all they need to do. Hardly more than $500 true cost in that.

Bottom line, what it may come down to is the fact that maybe they don't actually want my trade, maybe they expected it would be too difficult or time consuming to sell a Kia in a Ford branded lot? In my experience as a professional purchaser for 2-1/2 years, our vendors would often gouge pricing if they really didn't want the job, but would take it if there was a significant cost markup. Might have been the case here.

 

[RevvdMedia]

Since you will be waiting around 2 months to get the car, why don't you list yours for sale privately? 2 months are plenty to sell a used car.

Most dealers seemed receptive to pricing the trade at this point, but offering to renegotiate at the point of delivery without a trade if I chose to sell it. I may look at this option if the dealer with a fair trade in allows this.

I hate the idea of dealing with someone buying my car which is worth over 20K on the private market, I don't like relying on them to do their banking and aquiring a loan to get the car as most don't have 20K sitting in the bank. I just don't trust people, money talks though. I'd like to know I could trade in for a good price if a private sale didn't happen on time. I can't really swing 2 car payments at once haha.

 

[Dary]

Most dealers seemed receptive to pricing the trade at this point, but offering to renegotiate at the point of delivery without a trade if I chose to sell it. I may look at this option if the dealer with a fair trade in allows this.

I hate the idea of dealing with someone buying my car which is worth over 20K on the private market, I don't like relying on them to do their banking and aquiring a loan to get the car as most don't have 20K sitting in the bank. I just don't trust people, money talks though. I'd like to know I could trade in for a good price if a private sale didn't happen on time. I can't really swing 2 car payments at once haha.

I'm trying to sell my car too and want it to happen ASAP. The thing I learned is most dealers WILL offer a much reduced value if you're using x-plan pricing. They want to make extra profit since they are not selling the car at MSRP.

 

[RevvdMedia]

The thing I learned is most dealers WILL offer a much reduced value if you're using x-plan pricing. They want to make extra profit since they are not selling the car at MSRP.

Although I can understand this tactic, the funny thing is if they offer X-Plan, the price of the car itself doesn't change. But if they lowball on the trade in and people sell privately, now they make NO money on a trade in since there is none, rather than a marginal profit. Maybe it's the "outside looking in" but I'd rather make a few grand than nothing at all, which is what lowballing sometimes leads to. :headbonk:

 

[GiddyUp15]

Actually some corrections.

$500 over invoice sounds in the realm of possibilities for X-plan.

MOST states allow dealers here in the US $100 in fees, but state law can trump that. Here in Florida they can charge whatever they want. I don't know about Canada.

They can also charge a $275 administrative fee. There is also a destination fee that X-plan pricing does not include- in the US its $825.

So $500 over invoice isn't a ridiculous price honestly.

https://www.fordpartner.com/partnerweb/jsp/howitworks/fordpartner_rules.htm here are some general references for X-plan rules

A couple of things are incorrect. They CANNOT charge an additional $275 admin fee, that is built-in to the X-plan calculation which is a set price for each car and is right on the order sheet (or invoice of an already built-car).

They can ONLY charge the $100 in documentation fees on top of the X-plan price, you are correct about that. Not 100% sure if the rules or fees are slightly different in Canada or not, however. $100 is the cap, no matter what state law says. Read this exert from the link you provided:

Unless otherwise provided by state or local laws or regulation: In states where dealers are not permitted to charge as much as $100 for doc fees, dealers would be capped at the lesser amount as provided by the state. In states that permitted more than $100, dealers would be permitted to charge the Plan customer $100. In states that permitted more than $100 and also required that all customers be charged the same amount, dealers may charge the Plan customer $100 and indicate any additional fees have been paid by Ford Motor Company as part of the AXZD-Plan Program dealer reimbursement on the buyer's order.

Taxes, title fees, etc. are all separate and dependent on your location, of course, but that is all government crap not money the dealer is making/scamming off you.

 

[GiddyUp15]

I'm trying to sell my car too and want it to happen ASAP. The thing I learned is most dealers WILL offer a much reduced value if you're using x-plan pricing. They want to make extra profit since they are not selling the car at MSRP.

Might try Carmax if there is one around you. I hear they are pretty fair in their values and they don't require you to buy anything. They'll give you a quote that's good for 7 days I believe...I know that's not 2 months but it'll give you a good idea in the meantime and you can wait until the new car arrives to actually trade it in...likely +/- $500 in value I'd think.

 

[mkenny28]

Also give autotrader a try. It is risk free and often you will find a dealership willing to pay more for your car.

 

[Dary]

Might try Carmax if there is one around you. I hear they are pretty fair in their values and they don't require you to buy anything. They'll give you a quote that's good for 7 days I believe...I know that's not 2 months but it'll give you a good idea in the meantime and you can wait until the new car arrives to actually trade it in...likely +/- $500 in value I'd think.

I went there and it didn't go well at all

 

[tsunami]

I have visited my local dealership (Tenvoorde in St Cloud, MN) multiple times waiting for the 2015s to arrive. They have been very courteous. I went in to finally decide on my order. They generated a Vehicle Order Confirmation document which states that the order type is 'X' (X-Plan). Together we fill out the lines...model and options. The document is printed out with the correct X-Plan pricing.
The salesperson says "we now have to add the State Sales Tax"...Okay
Then he says "there is a $700 document fee"...I nearly fell out of my chair. I ask what about the $100 max doc fee when X-Plan is utilized. He tells me I am wrong and won't budge. We proceed and then he says that to process the order he needs a $5,000 non-refundable deposit. He prints out the full listing.
I tell him thank you, but with a $5,000 deposit I am going to have to think about it.
I immediately contact another dealer in the area...$100 doc fee and he apologizes when he asks for $500 non-refundable deposit. I have subsequently talked to several more dealers and they all laughed when told that my local dealer is demanding that high a deposit.

 

[GiddyUp15]

I have visited my local dealership (Tenvoorde in St Cloud, MN) multiple times waiting for the 2015s to arrive. They have been very courteous. I went in to finally decide on my order. They generated a Vehicle Order Confirmation document which states that the order type is 'X' (X-Plan). Together we fill out the lines...model and options. The document is printed out with the correct X-Plan pricing.
The salesperson says "we now have to add the State Sales Tax"...Okay
Then he says "there is a $700 document fee"...I nearly fell out of my chair. I ask what about the $100 max doc fee when X-Plan is utilized. He tells me I am wrong and won't budge. We proceed and then he says that to process the order he needs a $5,000 non-refundable deposit. He prints out the full listing.
I tell him thank you, but with a $5,000 deposit I am going to have to think about it.
I immediately contact another dealer in the area...$100 doc fee and he apologizes when he asks for $500 non-refundable deposit. I have subsequently talked to several more dealers and they all laughed when told that my local dealer is demanding that high a deposit.

Wow! Was this guy selling Mustangs from the back of a van or something? :lol:


You should report them to Ford. If a dealer accepts X-plan they have to follow the rules, otherwise I hear they can get in trouble with Ford. As far as deposit, Ford has no say but I bet they wouldn't be so happy to hear that part either....I would also post reviews for that dealer (Google, Yelp, etc). Glad you moved on and didn't get screwed!

Sponsored