7th Generation Mustang (S650) Moved to 2022...

[I Bleed Ford Blue]

I m guessing the next refresh mustang gt will get a power bump matching Bullit horsepower. Ford will keep it there for a long time till S650 comes out.

They probably will but not until production of the bullit ceases. Ford won't sell both at the same time, it would cannibalize the bullit sales. If you look beyond the special green color, a bullit is just a GT premium with PP1 and active exhaust and a 20 hp bump in power.

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[Stonehauler]

Challenger is still (sort of) a competitor.

If the Camaro is truly axed, then upping the size of the Mustang to the Challenger might be right. If I understand it correctly (and I may not, so someone please correct me if I'm wrong), CAFE has a "footprint" component to it as well, so the bigger the car, the less MPGs it has to make.

It might also be a response to political hedging. If the current president is re-elected, CAFE will continue on course. If a different president is elected, he or she might make significant changes to CAFE. Depending on how soon those changes could be expected to take place, delaying some key engineering/tooling from 2021 to 2022/23 makes sense. New US president, and they might sit on the old design until it's no longer viable. Current president, and they can invest early enough to get some decent returns before the next election.

Finally, with regards to making it the size of the BRZ...I highly doubt it. Many mustang buyers are young, but a lot more are older...and fatter. The average American is also taller, so cars like the BRZ don't make sense in the US market. They are simply too small for American's to drive.

 

[I Bleed Ford Blue]

Finally, with regards to making it the size of the BRZ...I highly doubt it. Many mustang buyers are young, but a lot more are older...and fatter. The average American is also taller, so cars like the BRZ don't make sense in the US market. They are simply too small for American's to drive.

Bingo!! Everything has grown in size over the years, the current S 550's are much larger than the classics of the 60's, even the fox bodied and sn95 cars. I'm 6'3" and back in 89-90 was around 220 and I could barely fit in my fox body mustang, now I'm 300+ and have to pull the seat up in my 17 convertible. Even the F150's have gotten bigger to accommodate the larger Americans. the 67-96 regular cab short beds had a 117" wheelbase, then in 97 they started to grow. Now a regular cab short bed has a 126" WB, but to be fair the old short beds (pre 97) were 6' or 72" now they are 6'6" or 78" so the cab only grew by 3"

 

[Norm Peterson]

With no competitors in sight, the 7 Gen Mustang got axed and will be replaced by the Mustang Crossover! Calling it now LOL

Shhhhh!!!

Sounds way too much like throwing in the towel on what a performance car should be (hint: "tall" isn't any part of it).

Keep your eye on Motor Trend's letters section over the next few months for a quick comment on crossover handling.


Norm

 

[martinjlm]

Just pasting here what I posted in another thread. Not saying this because I own a Camaro. At the end of the day I like Mustang and Camaro about the same. Some trim levels more than others. I’m saying this because where I work in the industry I get to see and hear things that not everybody gets to see and hear.

Camaro is in the same position Mustang and Challenger are in.

Mustang is staying on S550 instead of moving to S650. Ford may move Mustang to S650 or something else after 2026. Or they may not.

Challenger is staying on LX/LY instead of moving to Giorgio. Word on the street is it may never move to Giorgio. Got that from a very knowledgeable source who got it from Sergio. Of course that had to have been quite a while ago. For those who doubt, he let that slip on an Autoline broadcast, so there is video evidence of him telling me that. If it doesn’t move to Giorgio, I’m hard pressed to figure out where it actually goes.

Camaro is staying on Alpha instead of moving to Alpha2. That will carry Camaro through 2023. After that, there are at least 3 choices....
1) Move to Alpha2 (unlikely)
2) Move to another platform that I am not currently at liberty to identify (most likely)
3) [EcoVert’s personal favorite] be discontinued (2nd most likely)

Option 2 includes the potential for various forms of electrification.

Speaking of electrification...just read today that Hellcat will be getting 48V Hybrid in the near future. That oughta be interesting.

 

[Twin Turbo]

Its this electrification thing that has me puzzled........in all cases (Mustang, Camaro & Challenger) one would assume creating hybrid versions of each of these cars would be much more efficient on new platforms created to support this from the off, rather than retro-fitting it to the current platforms.

 

[Stonehauler]

yes, it would, which is why the new platforms are being generated. Electrification is a really good thing, but it does have a few major issues.

1) Taxes. In the US, gas taxes pay for a lot of the infrastructure we use. How do we translate this to electric and plug in hybrid cars? With them being very fuel efficient or not using gas at all, do we institute a per mile tax? Personally, I don't want the Gov. tracking or monitoring how much I use my car. I don't want my insurance company doing it either. Taxing at the charging point seems fair, and it can be done with public infrastructure, but it also means installing a second meter in your house for purposes of taxing the electricity used to charge your car. This is something many people will try and bypass by using a non taxed outlet. Ok, tax the electricity at the utility meter, but that puts an extra tax on those who use electricity but don't have electric cars, or don't drive them very much. There needs to be a fair way to do it that does not involve punishing or double dipping on non-electric drivers, does not require tracking or even usage by the government, but is also hard to bypass or cheat on by bypassing metered chargers.

2) Charge times. I drive long distances, At least once a year, I drive from the east coast to the Chicago area, sometimes 2-3 times a year. My wife and I take our dogs with us on these trips, so flying is out, plus it is a lot more expensive when you add in the car rentals, ticket prices, hassle at the airports, etc. Refueling/restroom breaks, etc take about 15-25 minutes, including letting the dogs out, one person staying in the car to keep the car running and cool in the summertime while the other uses the restroom and gets food, then the other person going in to the restrooms while fuel is being pumped. If I had to sit and charge my vehicle, I would need a place for my dogs to be because you can't leave them in the car. I would also need it to be able to go from 1/4 charge to full charge in that 25 minute span.'

3) Range. Electric vehicles need to be able to achieve a 400 miles range for me at highway speeds. I can get that on almost all my vehicles, including my F350.

If they can figure all that out, I will happily buy an electric car. Until they do though, I will continue pumping dead dinos into my tank...

 

[martinjlm]

Its this electrification thing that has me puzzled........in all cases (Mustang, Camaro & Challenger) one would assume creating hybrid versions of each of these cars would be much more efficient on new platforms created to support this from the off, rather than retro-fitting it to the current platforms.

It really depends on whether we are talking FULL hybrids or MILD hybrids. A 48V mild hybrid can be implemented on existing platforms relatively easily. Jeep Wrangler and Ram 1500 both have 48V mild hybrids available now. Micky Bly, the head of FCA Powertrain (and an ex-colleague at GM) just recently said in an interview with Detroit Bureau that we can expect to see electrification coming to the Hellcat soon. The 48V system is already available on the 5.7L but now he’s talking Hellcat.

48V doesn’t need the big battery that a full hybrid needs, so the battery can be packaged wherever there is sufficient space for something about the size of a briefcase. Depending on how much electric motor you throw at it, it can help with launch, it can turn the engine off on decel instead of just at a complete stop. And the 48V powernet can support e-turbos. Lot of potential in 48V hybrids. One of my favorite technologies. Here’s a schematic of how the 48V system fits in Wrangler. Item 1 is the motor generator, Item 2 is the electrical connector, Item 3 is the Lithium Ion 48V battery.

 

[Cardude99]

With no competitors in sight, the 7 Gen Mustang got axed and will be replaced by the Mustang Crossover! Calling it now LOL

Well if that happens and the big three go away then I'll have an excuse to look for a slightly used 991.2 as an upgrade.

 

[Stonehauler]

Challenger is staying on LX/LY instead of moving to Giorgio. /QUOTE]

I wonder if this is because the Giorgio is so much smaller...

I sat in a Gulia at the DC auto show and at 6'2", it was too small for me, my head hit the roof with the seat all the way down and laid back as far as it could be and still be a good driving position. I know that getting an Alfa is silly according to the reputation of Italian cars, but it does look nice. Guess we will see.

 

[martinjlm]

@Stonehauler , yes. Not wide enough. I was on Autoline After Hours last week and John McElroy (program host) details the conversation he had with Sergio about it at the very beginning of the program. If you have the stamina to watch the whole hour + we get into a discussion on the Camaro dead or no at about the 59 minute mark.

 

[boB]

48V doesn’t need the big battery that a full hybrid needs, so the battery can be packaged wherever there is sufficient space for something about the size of a briefcase. Depending on how much electric motor you throw at it, it can help with launch, it can turn the engine off on decel instead of just at a complete stop. And the 48V powernet can support e-turbos. Lot of potential in 48V hybrids. One of my favorite technologies. Here’s a schematic of how the 48V system fits in Wrangler. Item 1 is the motor generator, Item 2 is the electrical connector, Item 3 is the Lithium Ion 48V battery.

48V at even 100A is less than 7 hp, enough to run a nice e-turbo but not enough to help much with a launch.

 

[w3rkn]

48V doesn’t need the big battery that a full hybrid needs, so the battery can be packaged wherever there is sufficient space for something about the size of a briefcase. Depending on how much electric motor you throw at it, it can help with launch, it can turn the engine off on decel instead of just at a complete stop. And the 48V powernet can support e-turbos. Lot of potential in 48V hybrids. One of my favorite technologies. Here’s a schematic of how the 48V system fits in Wrangler. Item 1 is the motor generator, Item 2 is the electrical connector, Item 3 is the Lithium Ion 48V battery.

This is what I believe the next high-tech Mustang will use. I also think the 2021 Focus RS will share the same 2.3 EB + 48v.

 

[EcoVert]

3) [EcoVert’s personal favorite] be discontinued ( most likely)

 

[martinjlm]

This is what I believe the next high-tech Mustang will use. I also think the 2021 Focus RS will share the same 2.3 EB + 48v.

I think the Mustang Hybrid will be a Full hybrid, much like the Explorer hybrid, just with a Coyote instead of the 3.3L as the ICE. The Focus RS is all but a lock for the 2.3T + 48V as you describe.

Here’s how the battery and the electric motor are placed in the Explorer. In Explorer, the battery is under the rear passenger seat. The motor is between the flywheel and torque converter. Expect similar for Mustang. Took these pictures at NAIAS.

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