2019 GT350 Engine Failure @ 2170 miles

[Blwnsmoke]

Ford won't buy it back unless it meets your Lemon Law requirements. Check your state laws. If they replace the engine within the timeframe, they have met their requirements l, if not get the process going the day you meet it

Again, state laws are different by state but typically you get back what you paid, less a mileage fee (minimal in your case), plus extras you had added, plus interest and reg fees/taxes.

This will not fall under a multiple repair attempt claim, you will fall under the amount of time out of service since it will be a motor replacement.

Tennessee Lemon Law:

The Tennessee lemon law establishes a presumption that a reasonable number of repair
attempts has been undertaken to conform the motor vehicle to the applicable express
warranties if either of the following occurs:
1. The same nonconformity has been subject to repair three or more times by the
manufacturer, its agents or authorized dealers during the term of protection, but the
nonconformity continues to exist; or
2. The motor vehicle is out of service by reason of repair for a cumulative total of 30 or
more calendar days during the term of protection.

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[Cobra Jet]

Hey @Cobra Jet - thanks a ton for all the useful resources. I called the Ford customer service and the CSR who answered the phone wasn't helpful at all - she kept deflecting all my questions and kept repeating the same thing - go talk to the dealer. So I hung up and called again! This time a really helpful lady answered the phone, apologized for the problem and said she'd follow up with the dealer she sent me an email after that with her contact info, and asked me to follow up with her if I had any questions.

I will probably be pursuing a buyback of the car considering the engine is toast (update incoming...)

Another issue with buying a car with a replaced engine is the buyer may assume the worst about the cause of the engine failure. Most buyers probably don't read forums and are not aware of the uneventful failures (I wasn't when I bought my car). They'd assume the car was subjected to abuse and that's what caused the engine to fail. They'd wonder what other components were also subjected to abuse. My car was subjected to zero abuse before the engine failed, but how would buyers know except for taking my words for it?



Ford will buy it back up to the MSRP. If you paid less than MSRP, they will pay you just that. Basically the out-the-door price you paid the dealer plus taxes and fees. I actually bought my car for a few hundreds below MSRP. Ford based their payment on that price, not the MSRP.



I'm pretty sure they will pay you the registration fees and taxes, even if you bought the car in one state and paid taxes and fees in another.



BBB has a dispute resolution service called the Auto Line (https://bbbprograms.org/programs/all-programs/bbb-autoline/how-bbb-auto-line-works). If you are not happy with what Ford offers you, Ford asks you to call the BBB Auto Line to mediate a resolution. This applies to all states except California, which has its own dispute resolution service (https://www.dca.ca.gov/acp/).

Having BBB mediate a resolution is a better alternative to hiring a lawyer and filing a lawsuit, which could be very costly to the company (e.g. they have to also pay lawyer fees). The BBB Auto Line could negotiate a better deal for you.



I don't have details about it how it works, but I assume it's a discretionary program for cases where circumstances warrant a buyback even if Lemon Law terms aren't met.



After calling Ford customer service 800 number, they should open a case and assign you a regional CSR (Customer Service Representative) that covers TN and knows its dealers. You should make it clear to the CSR that you want to request a buyback. The CSR will tell you which state Lemon Law applies to you, IA where you bought it or TN where you registered it.



Yes, bummer!

BTW, here are two GT350 engine failures on Youtube similar to yours where the engine is still running but had rod knock. I guess it can keep running until the broken rod jams with debris in the cylinder or busts out of the engine block.




And

@PRTK350
Good to hear you have a Regional CSR involved and a Case started. Document everything and try to correspond via emails so you get their comments or progress notes in email format. Any phone calls, document or keep voice mails. Don’t rely on them following up with you, you will need to stay on top of them.

At this point, most of your communication will be with the CSR as the CSR works with the Dealership Service Center. Your Service Writer will stay in contact with you as well regarding any progress they make.

Everything @mroad noted in his reply is spot on. You’re definitely going to need the CSR’s guidance regarding the State Lemon Law Ford will follow, since the original purchase was in another State other than your residing State. There was a prior thread on here where an M6G member purchased an S550 outside of his home State, was having issues and was going to do a Buy Back. From what I recall with his case, he didn’t make out too well because the Lemon Law defaulted to the State in which the car was purchased and those laws were not as good had he purchased the vehicle in his Home State. I can’t find the thread at the moment, but maybe someone else knows of it.

 

[PRTK350]

@PRTK350
Good to hear you have a Regional CSR involved and a Case started. Document everything and try to correspond via emails so you get their comments or progress notes in email format. Any phone calls, document or keep voice mails. Don’t rely on them following up with you, you will need to stay on top of them.

At this point, most of your communication will be with the CSR as the CSR works with the Dealership Service Center. Your Service Writer will stay in contact with you as well regarding any progress they make.

Everything @mroad noted in his reply is spot on. You’re definitely going to need the CSR’s guidance regarding the State Lemon Law Ford will follow, since the original purchase was in another State other than your residing State. There was a prior thread on here where an M6G member purchased an S550 outside of his home State, was having issues and was going to do a Buy Back. From what I recall with his case, he didn’t make out too well because the Lemon Law defaulted to the State in which the car was purchased and those laws were not as good had he purchased the vehicle in his Home State. I can’t find the thread at the moment, but maybe someone else knows of it.

@Cobra Jet ; @mroad - again folks, thanks for the valuable info. really helps! I went through a lot of both of your posts, and there's some really solid info there.

I had a few questions on my approach though.
1. Should I let the CSR know of my intention of pursuing a buyback right now? Or do you think I should wait for some more time?

2. Is there any point of me following up with them and staying on top of this? This is a contorted way of thinking, but Isn't it better for them to take longer to fix my car? That way they hit the lemon law period?

3. Should I ask the CSR about which state's lemon law applies?

4. I bought the car in Iowa and registered it in Tennessee.
Iowa Lemon Law kicks in when the car is out of action for 20 days. I then have to send a written notice to Ford for "the need for correction or repair of the nonconformity", and give them another 10 days to fix it.
Tennessee Lemon Law kicks in when the car is out of service for 30 days. I then send a written notice to them giving them an opportunity to fix the car in 10 days.

5. How did you guys send the written notice to Ford?

6. Without me going legal with this, at what point does Ford start considering a buy back of the car? My car is already in the dealership for 7 days...

 

[shogun32]

4. I bought the car in Iowa and registered it in Tennessee.

then TN law applies.

 

[PRTK350]

@Cobra Jet ; @mroad - again folks, thanks for the valuable info. really helps! I went through a lot of both of your posts, and there's some really solid info there.

I had a few questions on my approach though.
1. Should I let the CSR know of my intention of pursuing a buyback right now? Or do you think I should wait for some more time?

2. Is there any point of me following up with them and staying on top of this? This is a contorted way of thinking, but Isn't it better for them to take longer to fix my car? That way they hit the lemon law period?

3. Should I ask the CSR about which state's lemon law applies?

4. I bought the car in Iowa and registered it in Tennessee.
Iowa Lemon Law kicks in when the car is out of action for 20 days. I then have to send a written notice to Ford for "the need for correction or repair of the nonconformity", and give them another 10 days to fix it.
Tennessee Lemon Law kicks in when the car is out of service for 30 days. I then send a written notice to them giving them an opportunity to fix the car in 10 days.

5. How did you guys send the written notice to Ford?

6. Without me going legal with this, at what point does Ford start considering a buy back of the car? My car is already in the dealership for 7 days...

@Cobra Jet @mroad Guys any thoughts on my questions?

Particularly the first question - Should I let the CSR know of my intention of pursuing a buyback right now? Or do you think I should wait for some more time?

 

[shogun32]

Should I let the CSR know of my intention of pursuing a buyback right now?

dude, first rule of poker, don't show your cards!!!

 

[PRTK350]

dude, first rule of poker, don't show your cards!!!

sorry for being a bit thick , but when would you recommend I start the buyback discussion? Once the car is repaired???

 

[shogun32]

once it trips Lemon law provisions. If they fix it before the timer, then before you take delivery of the car. Though how much sympathy you'll get from 'diminished value' is debatable. But you can explore getting Ford to comp you a longer powertrain warranty in the meantime.

 

[PRTK350]

once it trips Lemon law provisions. If they fix it before the timer, then before you take delivery of the car. Though how much sympathy you'll get from 'diminished value' is debatable. But you can explore getting Ford to comp you a longer powertrain warranty in the meantime.

once it trips Lemon law provisions. If they fix it before the timer, then before you take delivery of the car. Though how much sympathy you'll get from 'diminished value' is debatable. But you can explore getting Ford to comp you a longer powertrain warranty in the meantime.

Gotcha! Thanks
Also - as a part of the Tennessee Lemon Law, the manufacturer has to be sent a written notice. Is that something a lawyer has to do? Have you done it, or heard of anyone else doing that in your state?

 

[Whitest Russian]

Gotcha! Thanks
Also - as a part of the Tennessee Lemon Law, the manufacturer has to be sent a written notice. Is that something a lawyer has to do? Have you done it, or heard of anyone else doing that in your state?

It might be worth it for you to contact a Lemon Law Lawyer to find out for certain which laws apply to you:

https://lemonlawexperts.com/states-we-serve/iowa-lemon-law/
https://lemonlawexperts.com/states-we-serve/tennessee-lemon-law/

Googling around leads me to think the law in the state where the vehicle was purchased is the law that is applicable.

 

[Cobra Jet]

@Cobra Jet ; @mroad - again folks, thanks for the valuable info. really helps! I went through a lot of both of your posts, and there's some really solid info there.

I had a few questions on my approach though.
1. Should I let the CSR know of my intention of pursuing a buyback right now? Or do you think I should wait for some more time?

2. Is there any point of me following up with them and staying on top of this? This is a contorted way of thinking, but Isn't it better for them to take longer to fix my car? That way they hit the lemon law period?

3. Should I ask the CSR about which state's lemon law applies?

4. I bought the car in Iowa and registered it in Tennessee.
Iowa Lemon Law kicks in when the car is out of action for 20 days. I then have to send a written notice to Ford for "the need for correction or repair of the nonconformity", and give them another 10 days to fix it.
Tennessee Lemon Law kicks in when the car is out of service for 30 days. I then send a written notice to them giving them an opportunity to fix the car in 10 days.

5. How did you guys send the written notice to Ford?

6. Without me going legal with this, at what point does Ford start considering a buy back of the car? My car is already in the dealership for 7 days...

So, neither of us know if TN or Iowa Lemon Laws apply to you. We could assume it’s TN, being that is the State you reside and where it’s registered. However, it’s best that you ask your Ford CSR for direction, or try reaching out by telephone to a local Lemon Law Attorney to inquire.

At this juncture, we’ll assume TN Lemon Law and the below links are your Home State’s .gov info, not 3rd party.

TN Lemon Law info:
https://www.tn.gov/content/dam/tn/attorneygeneral/documents/consumer/militaryguide/chapter01.pdf

https://www.tn.gov/content/dam/tn/a.../consumer_resources/Consumer_MVC_Brochure.pdf

Per the 1st link, notice the statements in BOLD in the quoted section below.

Tennessee Lemon Law

Most people buy a new car because they expect it to be free from defects. When a consumer is faced with paying a new car price, he or she can become very frustrated if the car has mechanical problems. The obvious reaction is to ask the car dealership or manufacturer to fix the car. Although asking that a new car be fixed seems simple, consumers can face a wide variety of problems and may be left with an unrepaired vehicle after several unsuccessful attempts.

Tennessee has a Lemon Law to help protect consumers and inform them of their rights when dealing with a “lemon.”

A “lemon” is defined as a:
• motor vehicle sold or leased after January 1, 1987;
• that has a defect or condition that substantially impairs the motor vehicle; and
• the manufacturer, its agent, or authorized dealer cannot fix the vehicle after three attempts or the vehicle is out of service for repairs for a cumulative total of 30 or more
days during the term of protection.

The Lemon Law only applies if the vehicle was bought new. Under the law, if a motor vehicle is a “lemon,” the manufacturer must replace the motor vehicle or refund the purchase price (minus a reasonable allowance for use).

What Should a Consumer Do if He or She Has a Lemon?

If a consumer has bought a lemon, he or she must notify the manufacturer of the problem in writing by certified mail. The manufacturer is allowed a chance to fix the car within 10 days. If the manufacturer cannot fix the car and the manufacturer has an informal dispute settlement procedure that complies with Federal Trade Commission (FTC) regulations, the refund and replacement provisions of the Lemon Law won’t apply until the consumer attempts to resolve the dispute using this procedure. Consumers are not bound by any decision of the settlement procedure and can still seek available legal remedies, including asking a court to award a replacement vehicle or to reimburse the purchase price (minus a reasonable allowance for use), plus attorney’s fees and court costs.

When Can a Consumer Take Action?
A consumer can file a lawsuit under the Lemon Law within six months of either the expiration of the express warranty or one year following the original date of delivery, whichever is the later date. Extended warranties are not considered in determining the time to file suit. Consumers should consult an attorney well before the expiration of this time limit to be sure of preserving their legal rights.

Per many State Laws as you see above, a vehicle owner must allow the Vehicle Manufacturer the opportunity to repair the vehicle.

Since you have reached out to your CSR and have a Case number established, that could be considered notification to the Vehicle Manufacturer, since you have made Ford aware of the concerns. Have you received any emails from your CSR? Keep them all.

TN LL states a certified letter must be sent. Should you or do you have to? IMO, you have already made contact and made the Manufacturer aware. Remember a lot of these State Laws were written pre-computer/email era where and when “physical mail” was a main means of communication. If you feel you need to send a paper letter, in the previous Ford 800# link I supplied, I believe there’s attachments or images of Ford addresses. If not there, then in your Owner’s manual, you should find that info.

—-

To answer your questions in order:
1) You can let the Ford CSR know at any point that you want to pursue a Buy Back, even if the car is in mid-repair or repaired. You can demand it (politely) by stating your case, you bought a brand new Shelby, it’s no longer going to be a number matched drivetrain which matters to you and will affect your future value and/or resale of the car. This wasn’t the “new Ford ownership experience” you expected and you need to be made whole. The CSR may decline it initially because the car hasn’t been repaired (yet), but some have initiated such a request.

2) You don’t need daily updates or communication. Let them inform you of any changes or updates, but keep records of last communication and let them leave voicemails or emails. If you talk to the CSR, ask that he/she email you with what was discussed, OR you send them an email with bullet points of what was discussed so it’s documented. If a week goes by with no communication, then you call the CSR and get a follow up. You don’t need to call the Dealership if you have a CSR involved. If the Dealership calls you, let them leave a voice mail or write down what was discussed.

3) As noted above - Yes.

4) See above - not sure which LL would apply since the car was purchased out of State. We can only assume it’s TN, but not qualified to give you a definitive answer.

5) Written letter - Again as noted above, many State Laws were written before voicemails and emails were preferred methods of communication. For me in NJ, it was also stipulated that the Vehicle Manufacturer needed to be informed by letter. I didn’t do that, only because my entire involvement was with Ford Corp, Ford CSR and eventually 2 Ford RAV CSR’s and a Ford RAV Supervisor. My case was very well documented and I did not feel the need to communicate via paper, as I informed the Manufacturer of my intent as noted.

6) Again, you can initiate a Buy Back request at any point. It will be Ford’s discretion if they will entertain and authorize a Buy Back at this early in the process. Assuming you go by TN LL, it would appear if you notified the Vehicle Manufacturer the car is a Lemon and your intent is a demand for a Buy Back, the Vehicle Manufacturer has (10) days to fix the car. However the TN LL is not clear, because if you go back up and read it, it states before the (10) day statement, that the Vehicle Manufacturer has a 3x strike repair rule OR if it’s inop for (30) days, it qualifies as a Lemon. I’m not certain here, but if TN LL is stating upon receipt of a paper letter, the Vehicle Manufacturer has (10) days to repair - then wouldn’t the initiation of the opening of a Case with Ford CSR substitute the “letter”? I’m not 100% sure due to how the TN LL is being conveyed.

Now with all that said - Ford does adhere to the State Lemon Laws - but I’ve seen on here and heard that people have been authorized a Buy Back even prior to a “30 day”or (insert other amt of days here) State implied provision. That depends on how adamant you are with wanting a Buy Back, how you state your case to the Ford CSR and wanting to be made whole.

So when you have time, check out this older thread in its entirety. It contains a lot of info about the Buy Back process and may give you a little more insight.
https://www.mustang6g.com/forums/threads/anybody-familiar-with-ford-buyback-options.99680/

 

[Blwnsmoke]

sorry for being a bit thick , but when would you recommend I start the buyback discussion? Once the car is repaired???

Ford will NOT buy your car back if they repair it within the timeframe (30 days in TN). On day 31, start the process if that's what you want to do.

Some buybacks/RAV have gone by quickly (1-2 months), some have taken several months to finalize and close out. The argument of it is not numbers matching won't stand, these are not limited production vehicles that will go up in value.

 

[mroad]

@PRTK350 It might be argued that you shouldn't contact Ford or tell the CSR you want a buyback so that they don't speed things up to cut the Lemon Law limit short. I am not sure about this. I feel that once the dealer contacts Ford the hot line and an engine replacement is authorized, the case is given urgency to avoid delays that might trigger the Lemon Law limit. In my case, I immediately told Ford I want a buyback, and re-emphasized this to the CSR with every call. The CSR called me every week to check in and provide an update. The CSR was also following up with service center.

I am not giving any legal advice. That said, I suggest your argument should be around "diminished value" as a result of engine replacement. It's a well established concept in the auto insurance industry. For example, if you had a not-at-fault car accident on a fairly new and expensive car, merely fixing it won't make you whole. The accident and body damage will be reported on Carfax and the value of the car after repair will take a depreciation hit. The insurance company in this case would pay you cash on top of the repair to compensate for the diminished value depreciation. Unfortunately, Lemon Law doesn't care about diminished value as a result of warranty repair. So if your car doesn't hit the Lemon Law limit, Ford can legally deny the buyback. The only recourse in this case is negotiating a good settlement with Ford, and if you don't like it, engage the BBB Auto Line. Law firms will most likely not engage (free of charge) if the Lemon Law limit isn't met. If it's met and the manufacturer is denying a buyback, they may engage with no cost to you.

There are several factors that may delay the engine replacement and cause the Lemon Law to trigger, such as:

• Availability of the service engine.
• Availability of parts, like gaskets.
• Availability of the master mechanic at your dealer. Only the master mechanics can replace engines on the Shelbys. In my case, even after the engine arrived, the service center told me there was another car ahead of me that the master mechanic needed to work on, most likely it's the GT350R HEP that I mentioned in my thread. Buyback on that car is more expensive than my buyback.

 

[Blwnsmoke]

@PRTK350 It might be argued that you shouldn't contact Ford or tell the CSR you want a buyback so that they don't speed things up to cut the Lemon Law limit short. I am not sure about this. I feel that once the dealer contacts Ford the hot line and an engine replacement is authorized, the case is given urgency to avoid delays that might trigger the Lemon Law limit. In my case, I immediately told Ford I want a buyback, and re-emphasized this to the CSR with every call. The CSR called me every week to check in and provide an update. The CSR was also following up with service center.

I am not giving any legal advice. That said, I suggest your argument should be around "diminished value" as a result of engine replacement. It's a well established concept in the auto insurance industry. For example, if you had a not-at-fault car accident on a fairly new and expensive car, merely fixing it won't make you whole. The accident and body damage will be reported on Carfax and the value of the car after repair will take a depreciation hit. The insurance company in this case would pay you cash on top of the repair to compensate for the diminished value depreciation. Unfortunately, Lemon Law doesn't care about diminished value as a result of warranty repair. So if your car doesn't hit the Lemon Law limit, Ford can legally deny the buyback. The only recourse in this case is negotiating a good settlement with Ford, and if you don't like it, engage the BBB Auto Line. Law firms will most likely not engage (free of charge) if the Lemon Law limit isn't met. If it's met and the manufacturer is denying a buyback, they may engage with no cost to you.

There are several factors that may delay the engine replacement and cause the Lemon Law to trigger, such as:

• Availability of the service engine.
• Availability of parts, like gaskets.
• Availability of the master mechanic at your dealer. Only the master mechanics can replace engines on the Shelbys. In my case, even after the engine arrived, the service center told me there was another car ahead of me that the master mechanic needed to work on, most likely it's the GT350R HEP that I mentioned in my thread. Buyback on that car is more expensive than my buyback.

Carfax uses many public records for it's accident information. Example, it goes through all police reports. I've had several accidents that didn't involve police reports (none my fault) and not one black mark on my car fax reports on my vehicles. Not all auto body shops report it either (like mine). So if there is no public record, there is no carfax report.

This is not the case for everybody but majority will work this way. If the dealer doesn't report to carfax, then there will be no record of the engine swap etc.

Diminished value works with insurance companies, not warrantees. I had a diminished value claim that I fought against someone else's insurance. I was able to handle that without an attorney and without small claims court. Had to professionally threaten in a nice way to take them to court (knew I had a case) and after a few back and forth offers, settled with what I believe was fair.

The warranty requirement is to repair or replace a defect, that is all. There is no "you need to make me whole", "my car isn't worth as much any more" etc. They repair it or replace the defective part, that's all. That's all they are required to do.

Now, many can get play the pity card and say how concerned you are about the longevity of the vehicle etc etc and Ford may offer an extended warranty at no charge. I've seen this happen many of times.

Heck, my dealer tried to charge me for a broken windshield wiper control assembly (the part under the hood cowl that you don't see that moves both wipers). I fought it with Ford.. dealer couldn't tell me how it broke, why it broke, just that it broke and "they just don't break". HA.. BS.. if you can't tell me it was caused by ME, replace it, it's under warranty. Ford CS got involved, I opened a case, stated my case.. dealer couldn't answer them, Ford covered it. And they graciously offered me a 3yr/45k maintenance plan at no cost for my troubles.

I'd shoot for a $5,000 8yr/100k Premium ESP for free and by smiling the whole time and telling Ford how you spent an excessive amount of money on a performance vehicle and don't trust it any longer.

 

[garagelogic]

All this talk of “numbers matching” makes no sense. There is no such thing as a numbers matching GT350. I’m sorry this happened with your car, but it is a mechanical construct. Things like this happen. If the engine is being replaced, the value of the car will not be diminished, IMO.

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