2018+ GT350

[thePill]

Well I'm not to familiar with the GT4 racing but wasn't the last great mustang in that class called the FR500C ?
Perhaps they could call it the FR350C ? I'm not sure. The FR500C wasn't a street vehicle. But I know what you mean. I do know the GT350S is in the works but that's a different class.

The FR500 Program was replaced by the Boss 302 Program in early 2011. Mustang needed a full tube frame chassis to compete in GT4 and it has been waivered ever since. Same as the Camaro...

The GT350 is a Motorsport effort to completely replace the Boss 302 and FR500, unifying the efforts under one banner. Both the Boss 302 and FR500 are obsolete and cost far more at that level to develop. The GT350 is out of the box, ready to go, just add roll cage. The Mustang's in GT4 were largely 3rd Party efforts. Ford is in charge now and the GT350 sales Mustang's.

Sponsored

 

[JohnZiraldo]

Well I'm not to familiar with the GT4 racing but wasn't the last great mustang in that class called the FR500C ?
Perhaps they could call it the FR350C ? I'm not sure. The FR500C wasn't a street vehicle. But I know what you mean. I do know the GT350S is in the works but that's a different class.

I believe the FR500GT raced in FIA GT3. I am not sure where else.

What is the GT350S about? What class?

 

[Darkane]

[MENTION=19530]Voodooo[/MENTION]

The next GT won't match the GT350 apples to apples.

I almost guarantee that it'll take a 10sp trans, magnetic ride, and a twin turbo 6 to get there.

The current GT matched the old Boss because there wasn't a big gap AT ALL. New car had major chassis dynamic changes where the S550--->S650 won't be dynamically different. They'll both have IRS.

Just not happening. Can you see Ford putting 295/305 tires on their next GT performance pack? Kind of overkill no?

I'd like to see light weighing done like everyone else, but the reality is 100lbs is all we're going to get (IF THAT) unless they reduce the size and footprint of the vehicle.

 

[Colleton]

I think that Ford will do what they did with the GT500. Continually improve the engine and suspension over the production life of the car. I have no real idea what those improvements will be, but I am certain that Ford has been working on them for some time now.

Assuming the GT350 stays in production (a good assumption at this point, IMO), I think that those of us who are buying now are going to see our cars surpassed in performance and styling. That's just a hard fact of life. Ford is selling cars, not guaranteeing an investment.

I chased the GT500 performance curve, going from an '09 to an '11 and then a '13 and finally a '14. I wish I'd stayed with the '11. At any rate, I hope not to be doing that this time around. Be happy with what you have.

The one thing Ford must do is not improving the engine or adding more power or using wider tires or better transmission.

It is to reduce weight and reduce size. The car, in its current form, is too big. Its probably at the limit as it is both from a wheelbase perspective and also from a weight perspective.

It needs to be 3400 pounds and probably 1-2 inches narrower and 3-4 inches shorter. That's all.

They either have to produce a proper GT4 variant and charge more or they need to scale the entire mustang line up.

If anyone wants a big ass pony car, they got camaros. Let them go for Camaros with their atrocious look and minimal to no visibility

That's the one thing that is guaranteed not to happen with the current Mustang.

 

[Voodooo]

I believe the FR500GT raced in FIA GT3. I am not sure where else.

What is the GT350S about? What class?

I can not say anything more about the GT350S. Last time I posted anything of it I got in trouble from ford with a email and phone call.

 

[JohnZiraldo]

I can not say anything more about the GT350S. Last time I posted anything of it I got in trouble from ford with a email and phone call.

I don't have a problem with that.

 

[thePill]

I can not say anything more about the GT350S. Last time I posted anything of it I got in trouble from ford with a email and phone call.

Actually, I think the GT350R-S got canned. At one time, I believe Shelby intended for SAI to do the SCCA PWC GT350's for Ford like Multimatic did the work for the GT350R-C. Since that time, the CTSC and PWC have both adopted FIA GT4 Regulation. That would eliminate the need for another option like the Boss 302 had to endure.

That being said and as some have said, new class new name right?

Correct!!!

All homologated vehicles carry the "GT4" designation. The name "GT4" is owned by Porsche and was taken from the FIA (GT3 and GT4). Therefore, the GT350R-C will evolve...

The 2018 GT350 will evolve up to GT4 levels and this will be the first Mustang to go into GT4 nearly OEM and using an OEM shell. The 2015-2017 GT350's marked the era that the Mustang dominated CTSC GS and put the class to bed. The 2018-2020 GT350 will assume the GT350R GT4 moniker like everyone else in the class and leave the "C and S" to the GT.

This leaves a lot of room for the GT to assume positions once occupied by the Boss 302. The GT350 is years beyond the Boss and it will move up from here.

So far, the GT350's is becoming legendary. It was truly the absolute best OEM vehicle produced for that class by far. The Porsche GT4 was close and the M4 GTS was late and a little behind... but the GT350 was truly the best in the GS class. It was THE grand sport...

RIP CTSC GS...

 

[J_Maher_AMG]

Assuming exclusivity and investment value are not part of the above reasoning, it sounds like you are suggesting that Ford, Multimatic, Roush and others cannot continue to enhance and win with the S550 GT350 FPC until the S650 arrives, and therefore should get out of GT4 racing while they are ahead. Or maybe you think they should proclaim that OEM track racing is no longer important, now let me show you our new Hellcat fighter.

And just in case they do have the confidence in their ability to keep winning, they shouldn't take any risk with the GT350 name and should instead come up with another name that can take the rap as a loser until the S650 arrives.

Am I reading this right?

Any suggestions for what they should call the 2018-2019 GT4 racing loser?

I think you are not understanding my intent. By no means do I think they should take their success and run with it. You can pretty well bet your last dollar that every special edition Mustang in the future will ride on Magnaride dampers, until it comes to the point that it is an option or standard on even the GT and possibly lesser models.

Carbon wheels aren't allowed in the racing program, and the type of engine is largely irrelevant. They could easily rename the race car as something else not to protect the GT350 or to put up a lamb for slaughter, but to allow the 350 name to remain special. I think they would be JUST as successful with their racing program if they swapped the 5.2 FPC for a 5.2 CPC version. Clearly the 5.2 in CPC configuration is a very capable engine, and with higher torque levels, could actually be more fuel efficient..

Bring back the Terminator, Mach 1, or a new name, GT4, whatever really. I still want to see them compete, and be successful, I just don't want the 350 to stick around until its all of a sudden at the back of the pack in comparison tests.

As Voodoo has mentioned, there are very limited ways in which they can improve upon this car while keeping the same chassis. Weight is the models biggest enemy, and not much else can be done to aid that. Power could be increased, but with the number of issues we have even seen just on this board alone in less than 1 year and 3 model years of production, do you think extra power would be the priority of those producing the car? Highly unlikely I would think.

I think they can easily come out with a new "track" focused Mustang to bring to the street, and FYI the street version of say a Mach 1 or Terminator could still be lower in the food chain than a GT350, as it wouldn't affect what the racing car could or couldn't do. I think that new name Mustang could easily take the racing place in the lineup, and easily live alongside a new GT500 that would be the Hellcat opponent and play the headlines numbers game.

[MENTION=19530]Voodooo[/MENTION]

The next GT won't match the GT350 apples to apples.

I almost guarantee that it'll take a 10sp trans, magnetic ride, and a twin turbo 6 to get there.

The current GT matched the old Boss because there wasn't a big gap AT ALL. New car had major chassis dynamic changes where the S550--->S650 won't be dynamically different. They'll both have IRS.

Just not happening. Can you see Ford putting 295/305 tires on their next GT performance pack? Kind of overkill no?

I'd like to see light weighing done like everyone else, but the reality is 100lbs is all we're going to get (IF THAT) unless they reduce the size and footprint of the vehicle.

S650 if they make it all aluminum like the F150 means we could see a HUGE drop in weight. Definitely more than 100 lbs, I would imagine 200+ easily going by the size of the vehicle vs the size of the F150 and how much weight it lost.

Lighter weight plus the Magnaride and possibly the same brakes our 350's use could make up for the higher HP rating. Add in a 10spd auto and it will almost surely beat it in the 1/4. With the new Michelin P4S tires that are a step above the PSS the 350's currently wear it would possibly have a tire advantage as well, even if they aren't as wide.

Just an FYI; if you look up "tread width" on Tirerack for the GT350 specific Super Sports, you will find that they are a very narrow version of the tires. The contact width of the 295's are barely more than the 245's on my fathers C7 Stingray. While the tires appear to be huge, they are well rounded to improve wet handling and highway composure.

 

[J_Maher_AMG]

I can not say anything more about the GT350S. Last time I posted anything of it I got in trouble from ford with a email and phone call.

Don't be such a wussy, we'll protect you

 

[Darkane]

I think you are either possibly not understanding my intent, or are just perhaps too focused on being combative that you can't see what I am trying to say. By no means do I think they should take their success and run with it. You can pretty well bet your last dollar that every special edition Mustang in the future will ride on Magnaride dampers, until it comes to the point that it is an option or standard on even the GT and possibly lesser models.

Carbon wheels aren't allowed in the racing program, and the type of engine is largely irrelevant. They could easily rename the race car as something else not to protect the GT350 or to put up a lamb for slaughter, but to allow the 350 name to remain special. I think they would be JUST as successful with their racing program if they swapped the 5.2 FPC for a 5.2 CPC version. Clearly the 5.2 in CPC configuration is a very capable engine, and with higher torque levels, could actually be more fuel efficient..

Bring back the Terminator, Mach 1, or a new name, GT4, whatever really. I still want to see them compete, and be successful, I just don't want the 350 to stick around until its all of a sudden at the back of the pack in comparison tests.

As Voodoo has mentioned, there are very limited ways in which they can improve upon this car while keeping the same chassis. Weight is the models biggest enemy, and not much else can be done to aid that. Power could be increased, but with the number of issues we have even seen just on this board alone in less than 1 year and 3 model years of production, do you think extra power would be the priority of those producing the car? Highly unlikely I would think.

I think they can easily come out with a new "track" focused Mustang to bring to the street, and FYI the street version of say a Mach 1 or Terminator could still be lower in the food chain than a GT350, as it wouldn't affect what the racing car could or couldn't do. I think that new name Mustang could easily take the racing place in the lineup, and easily live alongside a new GT500 that would be the Hellcat opponent and play the headlines numbers game.




S650 if they make it all aluminum like the F150 means we could see a HUGE drop in weight. Definitely more than 100 lbs, I would imagine 200+ easily going by the size of the vehicle vs the size of the F150 and how much weight it lost.

Lighter weight plus the Magnaride and possibly the same brakes our 350's use could make up for the higher HP rating. Add in a 10spd auto and it will almost surely beat it in the 1/4. With the new Michelin P4S tires that are a step above the PSS the 350's currently wear it would possibly have a tire advantage as well, even if they aren't as wide.

Just an FYI; if you look up "tread width" on Tirerack for the GT350 specific Super Sports, you will find that they are a very narrow version of the tires. The contact width of the 295's are barely more than the 245's on my fathers C7 Stingray. While the tires appear to be huge, they are well rounded to improve wet handling and highway composure.

The problem is a good portion of the car is aluminum already. Ford may take a daring move and make the entire unibody from aluminum, but it's just to darn expensive to have a base model for - whatever 25k - and be aluminum unibody.

Ford can go ultra high strength steel in the chassis, aluminum doors. Might save like I said 100lbs. There's a couple more tricks, but I doubt we'll see the entire car as aluminum.

Furthermore, applying aluminum to the rear of the car (decklid, diff pumpkin, rockerpanel and quarters means the car is be insanely front weight biased. Good luck being neutral handling then.

I just don't see it. The next steps in my professional internet professor opinion is:

Some higher strength steel in the frame, aluminum door skins, composites in front structure like the 350, lighter wheels and two piece rotors.

Likely 100lbs, HOPEFULLY 150lbs. That does make the car lighter. The 10sp will likely add 50-75lbs over the manual.

I also secretly hope ford makes the foot print slightly smaller and cuts the overhangs. That with what I said above can cut 200lbs.

 

[J_Maher_AMG]

The problem is a good portion of the car is aluminum already. Ford may take a daring move and make the entire unibody from aluminum, but it's just to darn expensive to have a base model for - whatever 25k - and be aluminum unibody.

Ford can go ultra high strength steel in the chassis, aluminum doors. Might save like I said 100lbs. There's a couple more tricks, but I doubt we'll see the entire car as aluminum.

Furthermore, applying aluminum to the rear of the car (decklid, diff pumpkin, rockerpanel and quarters means the car is be insanely front weight biased. Good luck being neutral handling then.

I just don't see it. The next steps in my professional internet professor opinion is:

Some higher strength steel in the frame, aluminum door skins, composites in front structure like the 350, lighter wheels and two piece rotors.

Likely 100lbs, HOPEFULLY 150lbs. That does make the car lighter. The 10sp will likely add 50-75lbs over the manual.

I also secretly hope ford makes the foot print slightly smaller and cuts the overhangs. That with what I said above can cut 200lbs.

Good points about the chassis balance, didn't think of it at all when I spoke about an all aluminum body. Very good points though, and now that you mention it, it is more likely that we won't see a massive weight loss like I hoped. And for sure the auto will add weight back in. We will probably never see a Mustang with the weight/ weight distribution that we would like because physics won't allow it and body style has too many physical constraints. They should design another premium sports car IMO, something to truly take on the Corvette head on. They certainly have the engine/suspension technology, they just need a new design with a much lower, lighter, 2 seat'er design.

 

[Darkane]

Good points about the chassis balance, didn't think of it at all when I spoke about an all aluminum body. Very good points though, and now that you mention it, it is more likely that we won't see a massive weight loss like I hoped. And for sure the auto will add weight back in. We will probably never see a Mustang with the weight/ weight distribution that we would like because physics won't allow it and body style has too many physical constraints. They should design another premium sports car IMO, something to truly take on the Corvette head on. They certainly have the engine/suspension technology, they just need a new design with a much lower, lighter, 2 seat'er design.

Yeah. I really like your thought direction but one of the reasons the vette can actually make a balanced chassis is because of the midship design with the transaxle in the back of the car. Same idea with the GTR.

Ford CAN make the S650 lighter, but it's going to cost. More than likely they should shrink the car. The overhangs are ridiculous.

Honestly, ford should shrink the car in length, move the engine behind the front axle an inch or so and sacrifice leg room. Sounds bad but shit, I'm 6'3" and I have like 3 notches before I'm all the way back. Use this space ford, don't tailor to the 1-2% of people taller than me and make the trunk slightly smaller.

I know a lot of people don't want this but its reality. We can adapt, or we can have a 3500lb M4 type coupe for 50k starting.

 

[J_Maher_AMG]

Yeah. I really like your thought direction but one of the reasons the vette can actually make a balanced chassis is because of the midship design with the transaxle in the back of the car. Same idea with the GTR.

Ford CAN make the S650 lighter, but it's going to cost. More than likely they should shrink the car. The overhangs are ridiculous.

Honestly, ford should shrink the car in length, move the engine behind the front axle an inch or so and sacrifice leg room. Sounds bad but shit, I'm 6'3" and I have like 3 notches before I'm all the way back. Use this space ford, don't tailor to the 1-2% of people taller than me and make the trunk slightly smaller.

I know a lot of people don't want this but its reality. We can adapt, or we can have a 3500lb M4 type coupe for 50k starting.

Yeah I was thinking of the transaxle layout when I mentioned the Vette, but that is also why the rear of the Vette is so much higher relative to the front. The Mustang definitely has a lot of overhang that it could do away with, and you're right it really does have a HUGE amount of room inside.

As long as they shorten the car a little and make it lower, while retaining the width, I'd be happy

I think the S550 already looks like an M4 in sidfe profile, very similar, just larger in most dimensions. But then again, most people think the M4 also has a lot of excess body length in places too, so hard to please some people

 

[Voodooo]

The problem is a good portion of the car is aluminum already. Ford may take a daring move and make the entire unibody from aluminum, but it's just to darn expensive to have a base model for - whatever 25k - and be aluminum unibody.

Ford can go ultra high strength steel in the chassis, aluminum doors. Might save like I said 100lbs. There's a couple more tricks, but I doubt we'll see the entire car as aluminum.

Furthermore, applying aluminum to the rear of the car (decklid, diff pumpkin, rockerpanel and quarters means the car is be insanely front weight biased. Good luck being neutral handling then.

I just don't see it. The next steps in my professional internet professor opinion is:

Some higher strength steel in the frame, aluminum door skins, composites in front structure like the 350, lighter wheels and two piece rotors.

Likely 100lbs, HOPEFULLY 150lbs. That does make the car lighter. The 10sp will likely add 50-75lbs over the manual.

I also secretly hope ford makes the foot print slightly smaller and cuts the overhangs. That with what I said above can cut 200lbs.

"IF" ford goes with a 10speed, I'll bet you that they will also use the aluminum diff to offset the weight. I'll also bet ford "WILL NOT" build a aluminum uni-body mustang in the S650. Another thing is, you can't bond aluminum body panels such as aluminum 1/4 panels and rocker panels to a steel uni-body structure. The rocker panel is a structural piece of the car. Bonding two dissimilar metals together is a failure. Sure it can be fastened with rivetes or adhesive but it's not a structurally sound joint. Bolting on two dissimilar metal body panels is what ford already did. The could also make aluminum doors and remove weight from one of the best places of the car. The center.

 

[thePill]

"IF" ford goes with a 10speed, I'll bet you that they will also use the aluminum diff to offset the weight. I'll also bet ford "WILL NOT" build a aluminum uni-body mustang in the S650. Another thing is, you can't bond aluminum body panels such as aluminum 1/4 panels and rocker panels to a steel uni-body structure. The rocker panel is a structural piece of the car. Bonding two dissimilar metals together is a failure. Sure it can be fastened with rivetes or adhesive but it's not a structurally sound joint. Bolting on two dissimilar metal body panels is what ford already did. The could also make aluminum doors and remove weight from one of the best places of the car. The center.

You can bond aluminum to steel using BMW's German glue. You can also bond CF panels to steel and I am betting we see that down the road as well.

The M4's entire front section is an aluminum section bonded to the steel structure. It is used often and actual increases rigidy and reduces noise and vibration.

Sponsored