Sponsored

19 vs 20 wheels for traction

FruityJudy

Well-Known Member
Joined
Nov 13, 2018
Threads
15
Messages
877
Reaction score
766
Location
South Alabama
Vehicle(s)
2018 Mustang GT A10
Looking at 11" wide rears in either a 19" or 20" wheel. Car is an 18 PP1 pack. Want to rum a 305/35/19 or a 305/30-35/20. Not sure on which aspect ratio on the 20" side with the 3.55 gears. Also, will a 305/35/19 hook the same from a dig as a 305/35/20 since both have the same amount of sidewall?
Sponsored

 

Semp1

Well-Known Member
Joined
Apr 26, 2019
Threads
73
Messages
1,118
Reaction score
581
Location
Valhalla
Vehicle(s)
2018 Mustang GT PP1 Magneride
Looking at 11" wide rears in either a 19" or 20" wheel. Car is an 18 PP1 pack. Want to rum a 305/35/19 or a 305/30-35/20. Not sure on which aspect ratio on the 20" side with the 3.55 gears. Also, will a 305/35/19 hook the same from a dig as a 305/35/20 since both have the same amount of sidewall?
If you get 20s you could and should run wider which would give you better traction with a better profile than 19’s. 315 or 325 is what you should be looking at with 20’s. Imho opinion the reason the GT500 uses 20’s and not 19’s. But with 19’s if you wanna run 315 you need to go to a 30 profile and to me that’s just way too thin of a sidewall wise on 19‘s. It just looks awkward and isn’t that great in regard to ride feel. I run 19’s and 305/35 in the rear. Wish they were 315 but will not go to a lower profile.
 

Fly2High

Well-Known Member
Joined
Sep 9, 2019
Threads
78
Messages
1,191
Reaction score
615
Location
Long Island
First Name
Frank
Vehicle(s)
2019 Mustang GT PP2
Going with a larger diameter tire will effectively reduce your final drive making the car slower.

Going with heavier wheels -(20" tend to be heavier than same wheel in a 19") will slow the car down.

Going smaller in diameter will increase final drive ratio which is why the PP2 is faster by 0.2 sec than a PP1 M6(PP2 dia 26.2" vs PP1 27.7" tire) in 0-60. PP2 uses 305/30R19 but that is more of a track focused tire and not a drag focused tire.

Do some Google searches. I found these you might find interesting.

why drag cars have large sidewalls
https://www.caranddriver.com/features/columns/a26089565/drag-racing-tires-explainer/

why bigger tires are not better for traction
https://www.onallcylinders.com/2016/07/14/drag-slicks-traction/

Also, larger sidewalls will make turns sloppier since the sidewall will give more. Of course all is relative and the amount is dependent on many factors, not just the tires. Generally speaking, good for dragstrip but bad for avoidance maneuvers or track driving.
 

Semp1

Well-Known Member
Joined
Apr 26, 2019
Threads
73
Messages
1,118
Reaction score
581
Location
Valhalla
Vehicle(s)
2018 Mustang GT PP1 Magneride
Going with a larger diameter tire will effectively reduce your final drive making the car slower.

Going with heavier wheels -(20" tend to be heavier than same wheel in a 19") will slow the car down.

Going smaller in diameter will increase final drive ratio which is why the PP2 is faster by 0.2 sec than a PP1 M6(PP2 dia 26.2" vs PP1 27.7" tire) in 0-60. PP2 uses 305/30R19 but that is more of a track focused tire and not a drag focused tire.

Do some Google searches. I found these you might find interesting.

why drag cars have large sidewalls
https://www.caranddriver.com/features/columns/a26089565/drag-racing-tires-explainer/

why bigger tires are not better for traction
https://www.onallcylinders.com/2016/07/14/drag-slicks-traction/

Also, larger sidewalls will make turns sloppier since the sidewall will give more. Of course all is relative and the amount is dependent on many factors, not just the tires. Generally speaking, good for dragstrip but bad for avoidance maneuvers or track driving.
That’s not exactly why the PP2 is faster. A bigger reason in regards to the tire the PP2 uses is the compound of that tire. It has very little to do with anything other that that. The cup2 is simply much stickier than the 4s.
 
OP
OP
FruityJudy

FruityJudy

Well-Known Member
Joined
Nov 13, 2018
Threads
15
Messages
877
Reaction score
766
Location
South Alabama
Vehicle(s)
2018 Mustang GT A10
The 20's will be an inch taller, thus affecting the actual final ratio. They will also have more mass than the same wheel at 19". There's a lot of reasons why drag cars use littles in the rear.
I thought it was not uncommon for a drag setup to run a 28.5" tall tires? I know about the 20s being heavier,less sidewall on the tire, etc. But my question is the difference between the two enough on a daily driver that drag/street races seldom to make a wheel choice to not go 20s? There are several wheels I like but most seem limited to a 20" size.
 

Sponsored

m3incorp

Well-Known Member
Joined
Feb 6, 2020
Threads
22
Messages
4,602
Reaction score
3,125
Location
Georgia/Colorado
First Name
James
Vehicle(s)
2019 Mustang GT Premium with Roush Phase 2, 2023 Audi A5
The type/compound of the tire makes the biggest difference when it comes to hooking. If you plan to spend a considerable amount of time with normal street driving, then that has to be considered. If you know you will be racing from the dig, buy wheel/tire combination for that and something different for the street. I keep saying, anything other than that is a compromise.
 

Fly2High

Well-Known Member
Joined
Sep 9, 2019
Threads
78
Messages
1,191
Reaction score
615
Location
Long Island
First Name
Frank
Vehicle(s)
2019 Mustang GT PP2
That’s not exactly why the PP2 is faster. A bigger reason in regards to the tire the PP2 uses is the compound of that tire. It has very little to do with anything other that that. The cup2 is simply much stickier than the 4s.
Michelin stated that the PS4S and the Cup2 , traction-wise, are identical. The difference is that the Cup2 place that traction in a more lateral direction for improved handling.

Improved handling will not improve 0-60 times which is what was improved on the PP2.

Not sure adding heavier tires and wheels to the PP2 would also necessarily be the cause for faster times. I have not seen any reports for any of the magazines stating that the 275 on the PP1 were spinning during the 0-60 runs either.
 

NightmareMoon

Well-Known Member
Joined
Nov 22, 2015
Threads
62
Messages
7,053
Reaction score
6,314
Location
Austin
Vehicle(s)
2016 Mustang GT PP w/ Voodoo
Vehicle Showcase
1
Michelin stated that the PS4S and the Cup2 , traction-wise, are identical. The difference is that the Cup2 place that traction in a more lateral direction for improved handling.

Improved handling will not improve 0-60 times which is what was improved on the PP2.

Not sure adding heavier tires and wheels to the PP2 would also necessarily be the cause for faster times. I have not seen any reports for any of the magazines stating that the 275 on the PP1 were spinning during the 0-60 runs either.
Show me where Michelin says the Sport Cup 2 and the MP4S are identical traction but one lateral? I’d like a link to that.
 
Last edited:

Semp1

Well-Known Member
Joined
Apr 26, 2019
Threads
73
Messages
1,118
Reaction score
581
Location
Valhalla
Vehicle(s)
2018 Mustang GT PP1 Magneride
Michelin stated that the PS4S and the Cup2 , traction-wise, are identical. The difference is that the Cup2 place that traction in a more lateral direction for improved handling.

Improved handling will not improve 0-60 times which is what was improved on the PP2.

Not sure adding heavier tires and wheels to the PP2 would also necessarily be the cause for faster times. I have not seen any reports for any of the magazines stating that the 275 on the PP1 were spinning during the 0-60 runs either.
Where does Michelin ”state“ that. It’s 100% false and is why Ford track cars use the cup2. The tread is by far way less on the Cup2 and the compound used Is much sticker. The Cup2 grip and hook wayyyy better. It’s undebatable and proven many times over at this point. Also in regards to heavier wheels on the pp1? The pp1 is 32lbs a wheel same as pp2 only difference is the pp2 wheels are 2in wider retaining the same weight as the pp1 wheels. I get it I see you have a PP2 and it’s a great car but hate to break it to you the better times are from pretty much the tires and magneride. Which is why a pp1 with magneride and cup2’s pretty much guarantees similar times if not the same. I know you want some other magical sauce in there but there isn’t.
 
Last edited:

Fly2High

Well-Known Member
Joined
Sep 9, 2019
Threads
78
Messages
1,191
Reaction score
615
Location
Long Island
First Name
Frank
Vehicle(s)
2019 Mustang GT PP2
This is on a Focus RS from a Car and Driver article comparing Cup 2 to a set of Super Sport tires which were replaced by the PS4S:

https://www.caranddriver.com/review...with-michelin-pilot-sport-cup-2-tires-review/

Purchased on their own, a set of Cup 2s would cost about $1500 installed and the delicate-looking, Y-spoke wheels command $1395, so the package is something of a deal. And the more aggressive rubber brings an instant, tangible increase in performance to the RS. Stopping from 70 mph takes 154 feet, which is only four feet shorter than a Super Sport–shod RS, but lateral acceleration jumps from just below 1.00 g to 1.04 g. It’s that kind of lateral grip that allows the Cup 2–equipped RS to lap VIR as quickly as it does. This RS’s accelerative performance—zero to 60 mph in 4.6 seconds and a 13.4-second quarter-mile—is unchanged
So stopping distance improved by 4 ft but the 0-60 and 1/4 mile are unchanged. Same car just different tires. Now what did improve was the lateral capabilities - 1.04 g vs 1.0g.


let's compare braking distances of a GT PP1 and PP2.

60-0
PP1: 104 ft
PP2: 94-97 ft

Very similar difference compared to the other article.

You will never accelerate as quickly as you can decelerate. There is 10 or less ft difference between them and yes , some of that is attributed to the difference in dimension of the tire. and the suspension. Same brakes and same weight.

With a wider tire, you are going to widen the contact patch and that is not always a good thing. There are limits to its benefit. Where that is, I do not know. Maybe the braking is suggesting you have more traction with wider. Unless someone does side by side testing of PS4S braking vs Cup 2 in the same size, then will you see the real difference.

Not sure, with the power these cars put out that most can tell the difference between a Cup 2 and PS4S in straight line acceleration. On a track, most don't have the skill to tell the difference.

Was the Cup 2 phenomenal on dry? yes.
Was it lousy in wet? yes

Does changing final drive affect acceleration? yes.
Does the effective final drive change when you change tire diameters? yes.

That is all I am getting at.
 

Sponsored

NightmareMoon

Well-Known Member
Joined
Nov 22, 2015
Threads
62
Messages
7,053
Reaction score
6,314
Location
Austin
Vehicle(s)
2016 Mustang GT PP w/ Voodoo
Vehicle Showcase
1
This is on a Focus RS from a Car and Driver article comparing Cup 2 to a set of Super Sport tires which were replaced by the PS4S:

https://www.caranddriver.com/review...with-michelin-pilot-sport-cup-2-tires-review/



So stopping distance improved by 4 ft but the 0-60 and 1/4 mile are unchanged. Same car just different tires. Now what did improve was the lateral capabilities - 1.04 g vs 1.0g.


let's compare braking distances of a GT PP1 and PP2.

60-0
PP1: 104 ft
PP2: 94-97 ft

Very similar difference compared to the other article.

You will never accelerate as quickly as you can decelerate. There is 10 or less ft difference between them and yes , some of that is attributed to the difference in dimension of the tire. and the suspension. Same brakes and same weight.

With a wider tire, you are going to widen the contact patch and that is not always a good thing. There are limits to its benefit. Where that is, I do not know. Maybe the braking is suggesting you have more traction with wider. Unless someone does side by side testing of PS4S braking vs Cup 2 in the same size, then will you see the real difference.

Not sure, with the power these cars put out that most can tell the difference between a Cup 2 and PS4S in straight line acceleration. On a track, most don't have the skill to tell the difference.

Was the Cup 2 phenomenal on dry? yes.
Was it lousy in wet? yes

Does changing final drive affect acceleration? yes.
Does the effective final drive change when you change tire diameters? yes.

That is all I am getting at.

Right..

Cup 2 is an overall stickier tire with better lateral G and longitudinal Gs which allows better braking (because we can take full and immediate advantage of the sticky grip when braking and cornering) ...

... but not as large of a factor for acceleration because we only get a little bit of benefit from the sticker tire (slightly less low speed wheel spin IF you're great at launching the car with the nannies off.)

Mostly, acceleration is power and gearing limited (after the launch), not grip limited, and you'd need the Cup 2s nicely warmed up to access that grip at launch. A cold launch on the street you might not fare any better than with the MP4S.

On a road course or exiting a corner, you can take more advantage of the Sport Cup 2 grip to get on the power sooner and get a better start down the straight, because we're very much grip limited and attempting to blend from cornering to straight line power application.
 

Semp1

Well-Known Member
Joined
Apr 26, 2019
Threads
73
Messages
1,118
Reaction score
581
Location
Valhalla
Vehicle(s)
2018 Mustang GT PP1 Magneride
This is on a Focus RS from a Car and Driver article comparing Cup 2 to a set of Super Sport tires which were replaced by the PS4S:

https://www.caranddriver.com/review...with-michelin-pilot-sport-cup-2-tires-review/



So stopping distance improved by 4 ft but the 0-60 and 1/4 mile are unchanged. Same car just different tires. Now what did improve was the lateral capabilities - 1.04 g vs 1.0g.


let's compare braking distances of a GT PP1 and PP2.

60-0
PP1: 104 ft
PP2: 94-97 ft

Very similar difference compared to the other article.

You will never accelerate as quickly as you can decelerate. There is 10 or less ft difference between them and yes , some of that is attributed to the difference in dimension of the tire. and the suspension. Same brakes and same weight.

With a wider tire, you are going to widen the contact patch and that is not always a good thing. There are limits to its benefit. Where that is, I do not know. Maybe the braking is suggesting you have more traction with wider. Unless someone does side by side testing of PS4S braking vs Cup 2 in the same size, then will you see the real difference.

Not sure, with the power these cars put out that most can tell the difference between a Cup 2 and PS4S in straight line acceleration. On a track, most don't have the skill to tell the difference.

Was the Cup 2 phenomenal on dry? yes.
Was it lousy in wet? yes

Does changing final drive affect acceleration? yes.
Does the effective final drive change when you change tire diameters? yes.

That is all I am getting at.
The times that are advertised for a PP2 vs PP1 are a road course and laps. Straight line they’re pretty much the same. A Cup2’s advantage are on turns and stop power etc. which is the advantage solely pretty much on a PP2. I Stick by my point of it’s pretty much tire and magneride and the Cup2 are a much stickier and better tire for performance than the 4s not that the 4s are bad by any means. They are simply second best.
 

Fly2High

Well-Known Member
Joined
Sep 9, 2019
Threads
78
Messages
1,191
Reaction score
615
Location
Long Island
First Name
Frank
Vehicle(s)
2019 Mustang GT PP2
The times that are advertised for a PP2 vs PP1 are a road course and laps. Straight line they’re pretty much the same. A Cup2’s advantage are on turns and stop power etc. which is the advantage solely pretty much on a PP2. I Stick by my point of it’s pretty much tire and magneride and the Cup2 are a much stickier and better tire for performance than the 4s not that the 4s are bad by any means. They are simply second best.
the times reported were for 0-60 which are done in a straight line. Sure, the effective final drive isn't the only reason it is faster than a similarly equipped PP1. My wording could have been better. I was trying to indicate that changing effective final drive gearing will affect speed. From what I gather, the OP wants straight line speed, not track speed. My original post was meant to show what affect each of those choices would have made. My apologies for my poor wording. It should have said that effective final drive changes aided in making the PP1 faster in straight line 0-60.

As for magnaride, this article was testing the PP1 with magnaride vs a PP2 if you are interested:
https://www.cars.com/articles/mustang-vs-mustang-fords-performance-packages-tested-1420700897178/

It was also an automatic! Braking was better in the PP2 here too. PP2 uses different braking logic was suggested in this article.

As for the 0-60 times those differences are from https://www.zeroto60times.com/vehicle-make/ford-0-60-mph-times/
 

Grintch

Well-Known Member
Joined
Nov 7, 2014
Threads
15
Messages
1,917
Reaction score
822
Location
Hunstville
Vehicle(s)
2015 GT PP
Not sure, with the power these cars put out that most can tell the difference between a Cup 2 and PS4S in straight line acceleration. On a track, most don't have the skill to tell the difference.
Where are you getting this? If you can't feel the difference between Cup 2's and PS4's on a road course, you should stop driving.
Sponsored

 
 








Top