so why doesnt the GT350 come with.....

[Grimace427]

I don't agree. The conversation has to be expanded to include the dual clutch. A dual clutch is not an automatic. An automatic uses a torque converter which means there is no direct physical contact between the engine and the wheels. There is a liquid connection...aka the torque converter. The dual clutch and manual both offer a direct physical connection which no matter what you do behave differently than the automatic transmission. The world has just expanded to include THREE definitions.

No. Having a clutch does not make it not an automatic. DCT's still have valvebodies and control units just like automatic transmissions. The engine-transmission coupling is not the defining characteristic of a transmission.

All torque converter automatics have lockup clutches already, and they are still automatic transmissions. Automatic means it does what it's supposed to do on it's own without the driver's manual operation required.

Having a DCT gives you no more of a direct connection than a TC auto. The shifter still has a "D" position where the driver just sits there and does nothing.

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[Process]

Yes. But performance dct are typically faster responding and can rev freely like a manual can.

 

[Grimace427]

Yes. But performance dct are typically faster responding and can rev freely like a manual can.

Rev freely? Like pressing the clutch while in gear and revving the engine? They cannot do that.

 

[Rob WH]

I think you are confusing a true race transmission (i.e. a paddle shifted sequential) and your typical manumatic with "sport shift" modes found in most mid range sports cars. F1 transmissions are much more manual than automatic, they just don't have a clutch pedal. Either way, for most enthusiasts its not the transmission that is going to be the limitation when it comes to piloting these cars. 1-2 seconds a lap isn't going to mean anything to your average track day fellow doing a few HPDEs a year

They aren't losing thousands of sales a year on, just a handful for those folks who can't/won't drive a manual. The folks buying automatic vettes aren't doing it to be the fastest of the fast at the track.

They also have to think about price, they priced this very aggressively to appeal to a certain segment of the market. You aren't getting PDK performance in a 50k car, so they would have either offered a sub-par auto or raise the MSRP

See my initial post and post 52 and I think it will be clear, I'm hardly confused.

F1 transmissions are not far more manual than auto... that's just an absurd thought on its face. They are automatically controlled. If it has no clutch pedal, it's not a manual. Grimace covered this correctly.

Those buying Corvette automatics aren't doing it to be the fastest on the track... but the breakdown has been(according to a Super Chevy article in 2014) 70% auto vs 30% manual in models which both were offered, through 2013. That's rather telling.

We will never know how many sales Ford loses over this, just that they do lose sales and that should be something they actively work to prevent, period. After all, isn't it their stated goal to sell vehicles and make money? Yup. ;)

Yes, an automatic has many advantages with today's digital controls. F1 is a showcase of the latest in automotive technology. But, any monkey can push a button for a WOT up shift or a rev matched downshift. Which is why most of us auto enthusiasts appreciate a driver that has complete control of his car and can execute a perfect heel and toe downshift. That takes skill. I for one am extremely happy that the GT350 is available exclusively with a manual transmission. It weeds out some of the wannabes.

Many manual transmissions today come with rev-match... so...

Manuals weed out some of the wannabes? Guys like Michael Schumacher?

Again, manuals may be the preferred unit for anyone... why should those few people be the reason to remove the obvious choice of the majority? That's dumb.

The problem is trying to use the word "better" to describe something that is in large part subjective.

An automatic is faster - true
An automatic can be smoother - true
An automatic requires less effort from the driver - true

A manual is more engaging - true
A manual requires more effort - true
A manual offers more control - true (most auto's allow control of the gear, but not of clutch engagement, so manual therefore offers more control).

Depending on priority, one or the other may be better for your application.

For a race car driver, a dual clutch automatic or sequential manual is probably the best.
For someone with annoying traffic, a dual clutch is probably best, followed by a torque converter automatic.
For someone looking for driver involvement, a manual is probably the best.

-T

After reading that... it's become totally clear... Automatics are definitely better.

Pros and cons added up, it really is obvious. For me, it's not about preference, but results.

I agree with many. It is supposed to be s special track car. Not a daily driver.

Too many creature vomforts make the car not as special.

Yet the tech package and if I read it correctly, even heated seats are available, not to mention A/C.

Ford did perfectly fine there. You can get it with bare bones or as most will prefer. That's exactly why having no automatic option is pointless.

 

[Rob WH]

Fixed that for you.

I'm not arguing that point! :cheers:

I agree...but... my dad said his new F150 is an Auto and a Manual because you can manually shift the gears. So that's that! LOL

Automatic being the key word... with manual mode. For the record, that switch is a pain to use! :ford:

Sometimes it isn't about the speed of a shift but being able to shift exactly like you want and when you want. It is like the argument about torque. How much torque you make matters, but where you make it is just as important. I understand not wanting to drive a stick shift, I get it. Enthusiast level cars do not need the extra weight or complexity. If this was a drag car, your argument would be far more valid.

Skape

I would not be shocked to learn that the DCT in the GT weighs less than the 6M in Mustang, not to mention the GT350's... Tremec TR3160 and those are actually moderately lightweight, @ around 106 lb empty. As for complexity... cars today are more complex than nearly anything else people use from day to day.

 

[whatjones911]

Rev freely? Like pressing the clutch while in gear and revving the engine? They cannot do that.

The 991 GT3 can do this. You pull back both paddles at the same time.

 

[Spa2k]

Again, manuals may be the preferred unit for anyone... why should those few people be the reason to remove the obvious choice of the majority? That's dumb.

I'm guessing Ford's market research indicates otherwise. :shrug:

 

[Process]

Rev freely? Like pressing the clutch while in gear and revving the engine? They cannot do that.

Umm you're wrong. Ever drive a Porsche, BMW m4, or a gtr? Or any lambo? These all can free rev in race and sport modes.

 

[CANTWN4LSN]

Ain't saying who's right or who's wrong but I think you are going to have to ask Ford Special Performance team why they only offered this car as manual cause nobody here knows.

Not all business is about maximum profit. Sometimes it has to do with that vision thing. Doubt Ford is going to lose money on the GT350.

Since automatics are so much faster, are the GT350Rs that are racing fitted with them or still manual and if so does that put them at a disadvantage?

 

[Hack]

Those buying Corvette automatics aren't doing it to be the fastest on the track... but the breakdown has been(according to a Super Chevy article in 2014) 70% auto vs 30% manual in models which both were offered, through 2013. That's rather telling..

Yeah I think Camaros sell more automatics than manuals too and by far. To me that means the people who buy them are more about image. For quarter mile racers the automatic makes sense, but most of the people buying those automatics do it so they can hold onto their Big Gulp while driving. They aren't buying the automatic because they think it's fun.

Ford did perfectly fine there. You can get it with bare bones or as most will prefer. That's exactly why having no automatic option is pointless.

Obviously some highly paid people at Ford disagree with you. Maybe you should re-examine your logic here.

 

[kz]

I am really glad that Ford didn't put auto in GT350 - not that I will own one (I'd love to but it's unlikely), but the entertainment of reading people constantly complaining about it is totally worth it.

 

[Mystic_Cobra]

Sure, they want to sell cars. One of the hallmarks of SVT has always been exclusivity. Yes, I know this isn't the same SVT. They know they could provide an auto but choose not to. If they were to do it, they wouldn't just drop the automatic trans from the GT into a car like this. They would develop something new for the platform like an SMG or one of the other boxes discussed above.

 

[chrsschb]

I like the extra level of driver engagement from the manual but we all know manual transmissions are becoming more and more rare in performance cars.

 

[spectremotorsports]

The 991 GT3 can do this. You pull back both paddles at the same time.

Correct, actually works the same for most paddle shift dual clutch transmissions, and even single clutch paddle shift transmissions like the Ferrari F1 trans in the Maserati GT-S

 

[10splaya22]

Sure, they want to sell cars. One of the hallmarks of SVT has always been exclusivity. Yes, I know this isn't the same SVT. They know they could provide an auto but choose not to. If they were to do it, they wouldn't just drop the automatic trans from the GT into a car like this. They would develop something new for the platform like an SMG or one of the other boxes discussed above.

Does Ford even have a DCT transmission in a car yet (minus the DCT in the Focus)? Maybe thats why it hasn't been offered because they don't have one available.

Could also have something to do with keeping the costs down and they couldn't find an off the shelf DCT to put in without costing too much. Also it seems like the Ford Performance team was going to all out performance and with the costs and extended development time needed, they deemed a DCT wasn't feasible. Look at the new Z06, Tadge said that he recommends the manual if you want to be serious about tracking the car.

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