Cadillac ATS Coupe vs Mustang Ecoboost

[thePill]

Geez, man. There is no dialoging with you. You seem to believe that quantity of info, equates with quality of info.

S197 Mustang GT Test Drive (Car and Driver): Curb Weight as tested - 3,580 lbs. I've seen it as high as 3,610. I put my car on the scales with the Brembo package and it was 3,604lbs.

http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/2011-ford-mustang-gt-50-short-take-road-test

S197 Mustang Boss 302 (not LS) - Car and Driver test curb weight 3,666 lbs. That is the highest curb weight I have seen for any S197 GT/302 - so putting it here for completeness. (note that this is with 285 rear tires, torsen, etc).

http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/2012-ford-mustang-boss-302-test-review

S550 Mustang GT (Car and driver) curb weight: 3,810 lbs, which is consistent with all other magazine tests.

http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/2015-ford-mustang-gt-instrumented-test-review

So S197 5.0 (3,580-3,666). S550 5.0 3,810. So looks like it is anywhere from 230lbs to 144lbs heavier. So roughly 200 lbs heavier. Why do you have to waste people's time arguing when you know it is so?



Yes I did. And every performance car now-a-days has a fast shifting performance auto-shifter. From the 911 GT3, to the Corvette Z06 to the Jaguar F-type to the M4, to the Challenger. And yes, the ATS-V and CTS-V have both been announced as having the GM 8L90 transmission as in the 2015 Corvette/Z06.

Why are you arguing? Some people prefer manual, some people prefer auto-shifter. And from all accounts the ZF 8-speed, the GM 8L90, the Porsche PDK, BMW DCT and the like are all good high-performance transmission, (I have driven being most of them) and are much faster and consistent on track than any manual.

That is why on the NASA GTS series where I race, auto-shifters are assessed a 0.2lb/HP penalty.

Again, why are you arguing with progress? Lots of people will pass on the GT350 simply because it has no auto-shifter. It is neither right, nor wrong. It simply is. Ford doesn't offer it, before they don't have access to one.

An ATS-V, CTS-V, Z51 or Z06 or Camaro with the 8L90 will be faster, more consistent and more accessible to more people than the equivalent manual Mustang - any day, every day.

Dude, that 3580lbs is the Base GT weight as advertised by Ford. It was just reported and not actually weighed. The Brembo GT Car and Driver actually tested and weighed was 3672lbs w/o Recaro's.

Car and Driver weighed a FULLY LOADED GT PREMIUM with PERFORMANCE PACKAGE and it weighed 3814lbs. We have seen a GTPP with Recaro's weigh from 3714 to 3747lbs here and locally. Don't ask me why a Standard GT suppose to weigh 3705lbs while a GTPP only weighs a few pounds more.

I assume, just as last Gen, the advertised curb weight does in fact include either the Premium or Performance Pack. It would explain why the manual and auto's are closer together now (including the driveshaft).

If the Base GT weighed 3705lbs, it is almost impossible a fully loaded GTPP Premium only weighs 3814lbs. That is only a 110lbs gain from base to loaded.

The S197 went from 3580lbs (real world 3560-3590lbs) to over 3770lbs for a fully loaded, Brembo GT Premium from 2014.

The weigh gain is small, even the V6 only gained 25lbs from last year...

Edit: It is also worth noting that the Mustang's curb weight in the EU standard is 3640-3660lbs. That is because it is a NO OPTION, BASE GT. If there was a 30-40lbs difference between Base and Premium in 2011-'14 (3580lbs vs. 3618lbs), then I can see a 45lbs difference in the Base and Premium this year (3659lbs vs. 3705lbs). There is considerably more in the Premium this year vs. last Gen.

Is it heavier? No doubt, as originally reported, they said 87lbs and that appears accurate if you compare a 2014 Premium and a 2015 Premium. Not if you use the Base 3580lbs vs. the '15's 3705, because I do believe it is Premium weight. Base to Base, the '14 and '15 are 79lbs between the two. The 3580lbs the Base GT weighed last year and, the 3659lbs the Base weighs this year. I believe a Performance Pack equipped car will gain 60-80lbs over the Base 3659lbs. This is why REAL world weights of a GTPP are in the 3714-3740lbs range. The Recaro's help but not much in Base form. The cloth seats are 50lbs, the Recaro's are like 45-47lbs.

A Premium GTPP will gain an additional 45lbs over that 3714-3740lbs, bringing the weight up to a staggering 3780lbs. At this point, a 2014 GT PP Premium was 110-130lbs lighter. Both the Premium and Performance Pack has gained weight this year as options. We have already seen a member here weigh a GTPP Premium at 3780lbs so, it isn't hard to believe.

Right now, a Base '15 GT will outperform a 2014 Brembo Pack GT at a lower cost. The '15 starts at $32,900 while a Brembo/TP/PP 2014 was about $33,400. A '15 GT should start at the 3659lbs that EU reports. There really isn't much difference, it is a Global car. If I remember correctly, an '11-'14 GTPP was between 3622lbs and 3652lbs...

...not a very big weight gap. About 10lbs, $500 dollars and probably a considerable performance improvement...

No other vehicle can beat that right now...

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[Cmycobrafly]

pill

Pill you switch every time at first u swore up and down that the 3700 pounds was not a base weight blah blah blah bottom line is the new car does not gain as much with the performance pack as a 2014 because the wheel and tire combos from factory at different and that is where the most weight is gained! Also they remove the rear subframe bushings with performance pack that is weight lost u ramble on and on and on my god everybody is sick of Ur long reapones! There is no optimal front and rear tracks because u don't know the chassis design that great there is no magic numbers. I love mustangs and always have had 6 of them! Bottom line the new camaro they r working on will be with in 25 pounds of a mustang take that to the bank but it will have more HP and torque and more tire and a 7 speed! I know fords respones in 2018 is a lot of aluminum and carbon fiber! Ford invested 100s of millions into a few patented technologies we r just starting to see some stuff on gt350

 

[1320']

Just tossing this out here on the weight subject...

A base auto GT w/ a full tank was scaled by BMR at 3,705 lbs. No Recaro's.

 

[dirty-max]

ford did make the statement that they do not plan on using aluminum with any other vehicle besides the f150 BUT I do expect MAYBE some body panels etc. that might change to aluminum the mustang will probably receive the 9 speed trans not the 10 speed and a power bump..the camaro and mustang will finally be going head to head and i like it..ford needs some competition because it drives innovation

 

[thePill]

Just tossing this out here on the weight subject...

A base auto GT w/ a full tank was scaled by BMR at 3,705 lbs. No Recaro's.

I can only assume a manual would be slightly lighter. Recaro's would save maybe 10lbs.

Is that about 3670lbs?

Close to the EU's 3659lbs, there could be a 20-30lbs variation from unit to unit. Maybe less this Gen....

Also worth noting, most of those 2011-2014 GT weights did have the Recaro seats equipped. Factor that into the 3622-3650lbs as well. It's about as close as I would like to split hair on, but I will split them if needed.

 

[02gtnh]

Where did you find eu specs?

 

[thePill]

Where did you find eu specs?

http://www.mustang6g.com/?p=3218

It says it is 3640lbs BUT, those GT's come standard with 275's in the rear, 15 inch disc and a 9 speaker system w/ amp. Also, the Premium Leather seats are standard. The EU car has slightly heavier standard options than the US standard GT.

With some Auto's now getting close to 3700lbs flat, it isn't crazy to think a 3660lbs GT manual isn't possible.

Edit: Until your ATS and/or Camaro looks like this, I think weight, performance and MSRP discussions need to take a break.

 

[thePill]

The Official 2015 Base GT curb weight is 3639lbs... It is still heavier than the previous GT at 3622lbs w/ Recaro's.

 

[Cmycobrafly]

The Official 2015 Base GT curb weight is 3639lbs... It is still heavier than the previous GT at 3622lbs w/ Recaro's.

Once again comparing EU weight do u not understand the put the steering wheel on other side of car and they have different regulation s then we do there not the same! The don't add metal for us crash standards to the EU cars! I still get a kick out of your other thread! U always bend things to your way of thinking keep telling yourself you know everything maybe some people will start to believe you but most like myself think u r full of it and making the ford name bad!

 

[thePill]

Once again comparing EU weight do u not understand the put the steering wheel on other side of car and they have different regulation s then we do there not the same! The don't add metal for us crash standards to the EU cars! I still get a kick out of your other thread! U always bend things to your way of thinking keep telling yourself you know everything maybe some people will start to believe you but most like myself think u r full of it and making the ford name bad!

Oh, they drive on the other side in Germany? I lived there for a few years and I never seen that.

If someone JUST weighed a Base automatic at 3705lbs, what makes you think a manual GT won't be lighter? About 25-35lbs from that 3705 is 3670-3680lbs. Add Recaro's to the base cloth for maybe 5-8lbs per seat (10-15lbs), that leaves us at 3655-3660, or just a few lbs over the 3639lbs EU GT. I think a 20-30lbs margin of error is safe so, that 3660lbs could go either way.

Once someone weighed an automatic at the manuals advertised curb weight, everything was made clear.

If you run with a 1/4 tank of fuel, you have a 35xxlbs GT w/ Recaro's. Do some much needed lightweighing and BOOM!!! The GT is touching the 34xxlbs mark. Far easier than the S197 in my opinion. Just because the brakes, wheels, exhaust and driveshaft are so much heavier this year. This is about 100-150lbs on the table. There is about 50lbs of removable garbage too.

The ATS-V is no real threat to the GT in any of it's classes as of now. The ATS Coupe is just far too expensive to compete with an EB Mustang too. Even as it stands, the Camaro isn't really impressing me that much.

It needed to be this...

...but you are ending up with this poop...

See now...

should have been answered by this...

 

[Baron95]

@Phil

You fail to completely understand that the performance gap between the Mustang GT and all possible competitors increased greatly in the current generation.

It doesn't matter what datapoint you pick, it got worse for the Mustang across the board.

The previous gen M3 coupe was heavier than the Mustang GT and had less power. The current M3/M4 got 180lbs lighter, has a ton, just a tremendous ton of power under the curve, and is now in a different performance league from the S550 Mustang GT.

Yes, these are not direct price competitors (though they are the top 2 coupes I look at), but are valid datapoints.

Even the aging challengers with the new engines, the new 8-speed, improved their relative performance vs the GT.

Everywhere you look you see cars getting massive power increases (particularly power under the curve in the top 1/3 of the rev range that counts), improved transmission, etc.

The Mustang GT gained weight, barely got a power increase, no improvement in transmission shift times. That is like standing still or barely moving, while the competition is at full throttle.

Yes, it is a good-looking car. Yes its interior, ride, etc improved. But it did not move the needle in its favor performance wise (power-weight, acceleration, braking distances, auto-shifting speed), nothing really.

 

[thePill]

In 2005, the Mustang gained 125lbs and didn't have an output increase until the Camaro came out...

...they better hurry, I'm sure Ford has many a smacks left for a rainy day.

I don't fail to see anything... Right now, there is NOTHING lighter, cheaper and better performing than a Mustang GT. EB Mustang maybe has some competition but, not the V8.

The 6th Gen already seems dull to me. Very, very regular looking...

Your hoping the 6th Gen doesn't gain weight, as most are. As it is right now, it will be difficult for them to beat the 2010's curb weight once the supports and accommodations are made.

No improvement on transmission shift times? Now your just being silly...

 

[Taneras]

So S197 5.0 (3,580-3,666). S550 5.0 3,810. So looks like it is anywhere from 230lbs to 144lbs heavier. So roughly 200 lbs heavier. Why do you have to waste people's time arguing when you know it is so?

Why are you comparing a base S197 GT's weight to a fully loaded S550 GT's weight?

From your own link:

"PRICE AS TESTED: $45,855 (base price: $32,925)"

I don't think anyone would be surprised to see a car gain that much weight when you throw $13,000 worth of options on it.

No question it gained weight, but not to the tune of ~200lbs.

"Thanks to a leak of information published at Mustang6G, we now know that Ford says the upcoming V-8 GT model equipped with a six-speed manual will start at 3704 pounds, just 86 more than it claimed for a base 2014 manual GT. It’s also a mere 54 more than what our scales registered for our long-term 2013 manual GT."

- http://blog.caranddriver.com/dont-worry-yall-2015-mustang-curb-weights-revealed-gains-are-minimal/

"The GT, which uses a rowdier version of the outgoing 5.0-liter Coyote V8, now has 435 hp and 400 lb-ft of twist, up 15 hp and 10 lb-ft from its predecessor. The compression ratio is 11:1. Roll a base 2015 6MT Mustang GT fastback onto the scales and it'll show 3705 lbs. That's an 87-lb increase over the 2014. With the new automatic, the Mustang GT weighs 3729 lbs, a 54-lb increase."

- http://www.roadandtrack.com/new-car...15-mustang-horsepower-ratings-ecoboost-v6-gt/

So the manual gained 87lbs, and the auto gained 54lbs. So the Mustang GT gained roughly 70 pounds, not 200. You're off by a factor of nearly 3.

Don't get me wrong, I'm also concerned how the new Alpha Camaro with the LT1 will compare to the current S550... I think Ford will have to make some changes to keep up. But the Alpha isn't out yet so we can't say anything for certain. But your weight numbers are just off. The base GT is right at 3700lbs.

 

[Taneras]

Yes, it is a good-looking car. Yes its interior, ride, etc improved. But it did not move the needle in its favor performance wise (power-weight, acceleration, braking distances, auto-shifting speed), nothing really.

I agree, I wasn't impressed with the S550. The power gained was mostly offset with the weight gain. I want to say that power:weight wise the car, despite getting a 15hp bump, only benefited from about 7hp of that.

The handling did improve though, they surpassed the Boss with a GT PP. I expected them too, and I wouldn't call it a huge win because the Boss wasn't the best benchmark imo. But the handling did improve some.

Again, while I wasn't impressed with the S550, I can't call it a bust. We haven't seen what the Alpha Camaro will do. Until we do its all speculation. I think it looks good for the SS that the ATS is so much lighter, but can that extend to a totally different car?

 

[Shawnski]

I guess, I'm still quite a bit disappointed that the car I was looking forward to buy right away when launched, turned out heavier, while the competing products actually took weight out.

You could say that it was an isolated case (M3/M4). But when I say the apples to apples weight difference between the ATS Coupe and Mustang, both with the 4-cyl turbo with premium trim, I became somewhat convinced that it is the Mustang that is the outlier - the only car to gain weight in this generation change.

That is disappointing.

But, yes. You are right. It is done. And overall the Mustang is an all around better car for most people, except for the loss of usable back seat space.

I adjusted the front seat of an M4 to my 6'0" liking. Then I went to the back and set behind that setting. I was palatial accommodations. My knees did not touch the seatback.

I tried the same on the S550, and I couldn't even get in. Even moving the front seat forward, my head was still squished against the rear glass. Shocking.

Gain 200 lbs, and lose interior space is shocking.

But yes, it is done.

So that's what is has come down to? A 4 series has better space efficiency than a Mustang...Good God really! Since the 4 is a 2-door coupe of the 3 series that is the single most important and volume leading BMW car with tremendous R&D (and priced accordingly)...not really surprising.

On the other hand, I expect to take delivery of a beautiful Competition Orange 2015 MustangEB, PP & A6 for a negotiated $26.5. I am sorry, but which is the brilliant car?

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