Cadillac ATS Coupe vs Mustang Ecoboost

[Vernichtung]

The ATS-V front track grows by an inch on the sedan and 0.2 on the coupe (since the coupe already had a wider track), while the rears decrease by 0.5 and 0.3 inch, respectively. But with wider rubber all around, Michelin Pilot Super Sports measuring 255/35R-18 in front and 275/35R-18 out back, the overall footprint is still wider.

If GM goes nuts and makes the Camaro SS (or some other intermediate version) have the same engine as the ATS-V (3.6L TT, 455HP), then there are no packaging issues. And the 8-speed auto would destroy anything that Ford has/is-planning to put in the Mustang.

How do you know what transmission Ford "is-planning" to offer in future Mustangs, let alone how it would compare to GM's 8-speed automatic?

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[Baron95]

Of course no one wants the Mustang to be heavier. But it's done now and it won't be changing, whether we are concerned or not, just as you say. Not sure what response you are looking for.
-T

I guess, I'm still quite a bit disappointed that the car I was looking forward to buy right away when launched, turned out heavier, while the competing products actually took weight out.

You could say that it was an isolated case (M3/M4). But when I say the apples to apples weight difference between the ATS Coupe and Mustang, both with the 4-cyl turbo with premium trim, I became somewhat convinced that it is the Mustang that is the outlier - the only car to gain weight in this generation change.

That is disappointing.

But, yes. You are right. It is done. And overall the Mustang is an all around better car for most people, except for the loss of usable back seat space.

I adjusted the front seat of an M4 to my 6'0" liking. Then I went to the back and set behind that setting. I was palatial accommodations. My knees did not touch the seatback.

I tried the same on the S550, and I couldn't even get in. Even moving the front seat forward, my head was still squished against the rear glass. Shocking.

Gain 200 lbs, and lose interior space is shocking.

But yes, it is done.

 

[dirty-max]

it did get wider and IRS though I imagine thats the weight gain ^

 

[Baron95]

How do you know what transmission Ford "is-planning" to offer in future Mustangs, let alone how it would compare to GM's 8-speed automatic?

Please. I'm talking about on-the road or announced/revealed products.

GM has shown both and reveled specs of the ATS-V (450HP+ V6-turbo) and CTS-V (640HP LT4 V8), both available with 8-speed auto, which is already on the road on the 420HP CTS V-sport, Corvette and Corvette z06, among other cars. We know that that transmission, gained 2 gears, fast shifting speed, and lost weight in the process.

Ford has nothing other than their ancient 6-speed auto, slow shifting transmission, and they were not stupid enough to even offer that on the GT350.

The Ford-GT had to go out for the Getrag DCT, and there is no known work by Ford to get a high HP fast shifting transmission developed (like GM) or built under license (like Chrysler).

Ford is totally behind in their performance auto transmission offerings.

So, no, I don't know what transmission Ford will offer in the future. But I know their product pipeline, and compared to the GM product pipeline, they are way behind.

 

[dirty-max]

Gm and ford are both jointly working on both 10 speed and 9 speed options for future product.. from what iv heard ford is working mainly on the 10 speed while gm is working on the 9 speed and the new 17MY raptor was aannounced with the new 10 speed so I'm sure ford will roll out the 10 speed for the 17MY

 

[Baron95]

Gm and ford are both jointly working on both 10 speed and 9 speed options for future product.. from what iv heard ford is working mainly on the 10 speed while gm is working on the 9 speed and the new 17MY raptor was aannounced with the new 10 speed so I'm sure ford will roll out the 10 speed for the 17MY

Yes, and we already know that the 10 speed is not an acceptable performance transmission, otherwise Ford would not have to resort to sourcing the heavy and super expensive Getrag DCT for the Ford GT.

 

[9secondko]

Even ignoring the Camaro, the fact is that two performance cars M3/M4 and ATS got lighter while increasing size, interior room, performance, luxury and capability.

The Mustang, in turn, got heavier.

Are you not concerned about that?

The Camaro may move in the same direction of the ATS, M4 and CTS (lose weight), or it may move in the direction of the S550. Either way, it will not change the fact that the S550 gained weight.

If you compare the price class, looks like your have to throw the gt350 in there to compare, weight and platform wise.

the Camaro is the real comparison for the GT and EB. (Even though the EB performs the same as a 200 lbs lighter car...)

And it does seem GM is doing everything in their power to make it the absolute best it can be.

That's great news as it increases competition.

However, it's worth noting that The the Mustang was developed separately from any other product line this year while the Camaro is using a hacked alpha. Also, the mustang was made to go global, competing with many light weight cars with great handling.

Already guys modding their cars are seeing excessively heavy parts used and that's without even bringing up the infamous "suitcase" on the exhaust side of things.

Ford has a LOT of wiggle room with the s550.

The new Camaro is no doubt going to be a much better car than the last gen.

The new mustang is a much better car as well. But whereas Ford did a slight bump in power from the last ten, Chevy is likely coming out swinging from the hit with the new engine lineup.

Cool.

We will then see how Ford responds with Mustsng.

There is recent history here.

GM had the benefit of an existing gt500 to target for sl1 development.

Zl1 became better than target. But ford had an answer that ate the zl1 for lunch.

Of course that's mostly powertraij and we are talking platform here.

Point is, the s550 as a platform isn't swinging for the fences yet. And the way the 350 R has shed so much weight while sporting a far superior engine is a proper indicator of that.

Instead of comparing a car that isn't even close to what the Camaro will be, let's wait until we have some decent info. It's coming soon.

And Fords response may be classic. Let's not forget, Ford isn't some incompetent company that just can't make a truly great platform, while the other guys figure it out "with no problem." Lol.

The Mustang is a very very important car and it has been given the development it deserves.

And the budget for the platform is now amortized globally instead of domestic only. That opens up a LOTS of options for fine tuning a new platform.

 

[SuperC]

He's not getting it... The ATS and Camaro platform will be far different. He's hoping the Camaro is a copy and paste ATS...

Not gonna happen... It will be thicker for sure.

The Fusion uses the same tactics the ATS did. A base Fusion weighs 3500lbs on a 112 inch wheelbase. If a coupe was made, weight gain... Convertible? Weight gain... V8? Huge weight gain if it was possible... A V8 transmission? Weight gain... Increasing the width and track? Weight gain... Supporting forced induction on a V8? Weight gain...

Once the Alpha can support the above, then use the ATS. Unless the Camaro will be V6 only. I highly doubt the Camaro is an ATS now anyway. No LT1 support. If it ends up being just a TT V6, I will just dismiss it anyway.

If the Camaro ends up starting close to $45,000... I will dismiss it as well.

Gaining weight is alarming, but since the C7 Z51 is pushing 3500lbs, it's not as critical as it was. Isn't that alarming? A Corvette within 200lbs of a Mustang? Last year it was 400lbs...

...and you think Chevy will do magic when it failed on the C7? I think you are in for a rude awakening.

If the 600hp+ Ford GT winds up being a TT V6, I will just dismiss it. :headbonk:

 

[thePill]

Pill you r full of it! Once again a corvette c7 is 3298 pounds per wiki! A mustang is 3700plus! That by my math is 400 lbs put them both on a scale if u don't believe in curb weights! A camaro will weigh with in 50 lbs of austang take that to the bank! 2018 will be a different story !

I said a Z51 C7... It is listed at 3450lbs... That is near 3500.

Right now, there simply is no other car that performs like the GT while weighing and costing less. The Camaro will not cost less nor will it likely weigh less or perform better.

So, why would I care?

 

[Baron95]

Right now, there simply is no other car that performs like the GT while weighing and costing less.

The current (aging, outgoing) generation Camaro 1LE test by Moter Trend, performs better (2 sec quicker on road course, and all other measures) while weighing 3,860 lbs and costing $33,535 (base) / $35,035 as tested.

That compares to 3,814 lbs and $32,925 (base)/$46,380 (as tested) for the Mustang GT.

So the cars are within 50 lbs of one another and within $1,000 of one another (base). (with Performance Pack the GT actually costs more)

So, while you may be technically correct with your statement, the following statement is also correct:

The Camaro 1LE is faster/better on a road course (according to Rendy Pobst and all objective measures) while weighing and costing about the same as a brand spanking new generation Mustang GT with Performance Pack.

So if you don't care that the brand new generation Mustang GT + PP can't keep up with the outgoing 1LE, that is fine. But I think it does not bode well for the Mustang when the new Camaro comes out.

See all back up date below.

 

[Baron95]

2013 Chevrolet Camaro SS 1LE
BASE PRICE $33,535
PRICE AS TESTED $37,035
VEHICLE LAYOUT Front engine, RWD, 4-pass, 2-door coupe
ENGINE 6.2L/426-hp/420-lb-ft OHV 16-valve V-8
TRANSMISSION 6-speed manual
CURB WEIGHT (F/R DIST) 3860 lb (53/47%)
WHEELBASE 112.3 in
LENGTH x WIDTH x HEIGHT 190.4 x 75.5 x 54.2 in
0-60 MPH 4.3 sec
QUARTER MILE 12.7 sec @ 111.8 mph
BRAKING, 60-0 MPH 101 ft
LATERAL ACCELERATION 1.03 g (avg)
MT FIGURE EIGHT 24.2 sec @ 0.83 g (avg)
EPA CITY/HWY FUEL ECON 16/24 mpg
ENERGY CONS., CITY/HWY 211/140 kW-hrs/100 miles
CO2 EMISSIONS 1.03 lb/mile

http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/coupes/1209_2013_chevrolet_camaro_ss_1le_first_test/

2015 Ford Mustang GT
BASE PRICE $32,925
PRICE AS TESTED $46,380
VEHICLE LAYOUT Front-engine, RWD, 4-pass, 2-door coupe
ENGINE 5.0L/435-hp/400-lb-ft DOHC 32-valve V-8
TRANSMISSION 6-speed manual
CURB WEIGHT (F/R DIST) 3814 lb (54/46%)
WHEELBASE 107.1 in
LENGTH x WIDTH x HEIGHT 188.3 x 75.4 x 54.9 in
0-60 MPH 4.4 sec
QUARTER MILE 12.8 sec @ 112.2 mph
BRAKING, 60-0 MPH 107 ft
LATERAL ACCELERATION 0.96 g (avg)
MT FIGURE EIGHT 24.7 sec @ 0.84 g (avg)
EPA CITY/HWY/COMB FUEL ECON 15/25/19 mpg
ENERGY CONS., CITY/HWY 225/135 kW-hrs/100 miles
CO2 EMISSIONS, COMB 1.06 lb/mile

http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/coupes/1409_2015_ford_mustang_gt_first_test/viewall.html

 

[thePill]

2013 Chevrolet Camaro SS 1LE
BASE PRICE $33,535
PRICE AS TESTED $37,035
VEHICLE LAYOUT Front engine, RWD, 4-pass, 2-door coupe
ENGINE 6.2L/426-hp/420-lb-ft OHV 16-valve V-8
TRANSMISSION 6-speed manual
CURB WEIGHT (F/R DIST) 3860 lb (53/47%)
WHEELBASE 112.3 in
LENGTH x WIDTH x HEIGHT 190.4 x 75.5 x 54.2 in
0-60 MPH 4.3 sec
QUARTER MILE 12.7 sec @ 111.8 mph
BRAKING, 60-0 MPH 101 ft
LATERAL ACCELERATION 1.03 g (avg)
MT FIGURE EIGHT 24.2 sec @ 0.83 g (avg)
EPA CITY/HWY FUEL ECON 16/24 mpg
ENERGY CONS., CITY/HWY 211/140 kW-hrs/100 miles
CO2 EMISSIONS 1.03 lb/mile

http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/coupes/1209_2013_chevrolet_camaro_ss_1le_first_test/

2015 Ford Mustang GT
BASE PRICE $32,925
PRICE AS TESTED $46,380
VEHICLE LAYOUT Front-engine, RWD, 4-pass, 2-door coupe
ENGINE 5.0L/435-hp/400-lb-ft DOHC 32-valve V-8
TRANSMISSION 6-speed manual
CURB WEIGHT (F/R DIST) 3814 lb (54/46%)
WHEELBASE 107.1 in
LENGTH x WIDTH x HEIGHT 188.3 x 75.4 x 54.9 in
0-60 MPH 4.4 sec
QUARTER MILE 12.8 sec @ 112.2 mph
BRAKING, 60-0 MPH 107 ft
LATERAL ACCELERATION 0.96 g (avg)
MT FIGURE EIGHT 24.7 sec @ 0.84 g (avg)
EPA CITY/HWY/COMB FUEL ECON 15/25/19 mpg
ENERGY CONS., CITY/HWY 225/135 kW-hrs/100 miles
CO2 EMISSIONS, COMB 1.06 lb/mile

http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/coupes/1409_2015_ford_mustang_gt_first_test/viewall.html

You are challenged...

The 1LE starts at $39,000, weighs 3860lbs and, I'm sorry to say, had its ass handed to it in SCCA T2 by a bunch of '11-'12 GT's. It is also a limited production, special edition Camaro. Only a couple of thousand were made.

I repeat...

There is NO OTHER vehicle that performs as well, is lighter in weight and, is cheaper than the $33,000 Mustang. Period...

As of right now, and since the Z51 C7 is almost 3500lbs, it isn't as critical as it was.

That's just how it is... The Alpha Camaro will be just as heavy-duty as the S550. It would be a mistake if it isn't.

Did you know, that a fully loaded GTPP Premium actually beat the 1lE at Motown. It was only slightly but, it did produce a better lap time. I wonder why you guys never use that comparison. Oh, it's because the loaded Mustang won.

 

[dirty-max]

I don't think I have even seen a stock comaro break 12s also since the vette weighs 3500lbs gm isn't going to let the camaro be any lighter..the vette is supposed to be the flagship car that you buy because it weighs less and has more power it's always been that way

 

[thePill]

I don't think I have even seen a stock comaro break 12s also since the vette weighs 3500lbs gm isn't going to let the camaro be any lighter..the vette is supposed to be the flagship car that you buy because it weighs less and has more power it's always been that way

He is using the Camaro's best case scenario, while using a loaded Mustang for MSRP, weight and performance. He uses a 2013 because a 2015 is almost $40,000. It's also slightly lighter. I wonder if the base 2015 SS can handle a GT at a $5,000 difference. Probably not... and it weighs 3935lbs.

This is a child's tactic...

I'm sure if Ford built a 2000 unit a year Mustang GT-R, it would be completely ignored. Camaro fans also HATE that the 1LE got it's ass kicked in the SCCA. It was embarrassing...

The Corvette is also made completely out of Aluminum and using a Space Frame. If I remember, I was told the next SS will have ZL1 type content. IT will gain a lot of weight in content, just as the Mustang and Corvette did.

These people can't look at the Alpha and see, it isn't ready to be a V8 Camaro. They are hoping for a copy and pasted ATS Alpha.

They will keep arguing to avoid this fact...

There is NO other vehicle that can match the GT's performance at a lighter weight and lower MSRP. That doesn't seem likely to change... the 6th Gen Camaro will not be CHEAPER, LIGHTER or, better performing.



Here is a tissue...

Clean yourself up...

 

[Baron95]

You are challenged...

The 1LE starts at $39,000, weighs 3860lbs and, .... It is also a limited production, special edition Camaro. Only a couple of thousand were made.

The 1LE is the Camaro performance package and is a readily available option - $3,500 - that you can go buy or build/order today from Chevy.com (see below). It is not dissimilar to the $2,495 GT Performance package.

SS 1LE Performance Package - $3,500
This SS 1LE Performance Package bears the iconic 1LE option code that is a Camaro® legend. This competition-ready package includes:
20" x 10" front and 20" x 11" rear aluminum wheels with a 10-spoke design from the ZL1® and a low-gloss Black finish
285/35ZR20 Goodyear® Eagle® Supercar® Generation 2 performance summer-only tires1, front and rear
Performance Ride and Handling suspension with front and rear stabilizer bars for excellent body control and vehicle responsiveness
TREMEC® 6-speed manual transmission with a 3.91 final-drive axle ratio
Unique rear spoiler
Sueded microfiber-wrapped, flat bottom steering wheel and shift knob
1SS models require Black Sport Cloth interior. 2SS models require Black front leather seating surfaces interior.

Again, very high noise to information ratio.

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