As promised, it's been a year since we debated cracking the Gen7 PCM........

[mejohn50]

My 2024 whipple car is tuned to the Tits, even had a newer revision with more trans features

love love love it, and no need for whiny aftermarket tuners, can run race gas, E30, 15lbs of boost on the street set up.

That’s all fine, but you’re still limited. Your car WOULD make more power on full E85.

I‘ll side with @Angrey on this...if you cared about making more power than you’re “allowed” to make, you wouldn’t get an S650 right now. If you’re fine making the power you can make with a locked down PCM calibration, then that’s fine too. Just know that S550s have much more potential right now.

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[Weeee]

Also, ford could just offer a bug bounty and write a check for $100k to anyone that demonstrates they can do it, then patch the hole

This is what we do at the company I work for.

 

[Angrey]

You said, below, the M150 doesn’t have enough ports for DI and PI. I don’t believe that’s true. Like you said now, it’s firmware not hardware capabilities.





Send the PCM out, pay the money, do whatever you want to it. It’s just one more, likely costly, step. That’s it. It’s part of the game. If we cared about “open” platforms, we would all still have carburetors and points ignition systems. Can’t encrypt that or overwrite the calibration from the cloud.



I am quite certain the S650 PCM can be written. That part is likely solved. It’s getting it to play nice with the rest of the car.



5 years < forever. So what if it takes time. You’re moving the goal posts.

I'm not moving the goal posts. I'm pointing out it took 5 years to break older encryption on a stand alone module. Even IF they can crack newer encryption (in the same time frame) again, the next operable question is as you point out, will it even work with the rest of the stack of control for the rest of the car. I wouldn't hold my breath. By the time it ever gets even remotely and painfully possible, Ford will probably have moved on to a new gen/model.

I can't remember if the MOTEC discussions I had surrounded something with the M150 that wouldn't make the gen3 possible or that they just didn't see the back end benefit for the time it takes to develop the canbus support for all the other systems. I know they have PCM's that will handle DI, I'm just saying it's more expensive than the lower port PI systems they already have on the market.

And we'll just agree to disagree. I'm not sure that I'd be too hip on having to send my computer off to get it permanently modified. Even now I can return my vehicle to stock fairly easily by simply reinstalling everything (to sell).

The bottom line is that we MAY NEVER get the same flexibility we have with the S550. That's the entire point of all this. And even IF it's ever opened, it may be partially or much more restrictive. Ford double foot ****ed the entire aftermarket industry. Whipple cut a deal that keeps them in the game, but I suspect their deal still involves a dropoff in Ford product sales, even with the increase in F150 packages.

Normally we could hope that someone like MOTEC will make a fully integrated package, but given that they've been purchased by Bosch, that's unlikely. So it'll have to be one of the other less refined offerings (like an external display or piggy back) but we'll see. Doubtful given that to sell it in the US without getting the EPA's attention would be a big risk, which is why they all pretty much stick to race only door slammer products.

 

[308 Cal. Bullitt]

The Inflation Reduction Act law (below) that prohibits Impaired driving by 2026, via technology implemented into every vehicle sold in the USA-
will derail this entire thread & the idea that coming bk ea yr is anything other than entertainment for the ego. Nobody is going to get away with overriding these new cars pcm's at some point very soon. You would be advocating for drunk driving if you did - or that's what they will say... ohh. & that you're a Racist, for racing your cars around the streets of LA & Chicago.

Anybody really think that Spirited Driving, is somehow different than, Impaired Driving? Please explain to the rest of us that the telematics software engineering teams at ea car manufacturer will know....wait..will care, if there is a difference between the 2.

These cars are not getting unlocked once this law goes into effect, as this will only prompt more patches to stop the tampering. Do they even sell enough s650s to warrant the need to unlock them. Is there really any money in it? I don't think the Mustang will survive without the Camaro and Challenger to trade verbal blows with.
C & D as well as Motortrend can only compare the Stang to the Vette in so many ridiculous ways...

The law will likely stand, unless Orange Man Bad steps in. (Doubtful)
They will just tell him how wonderful he is 1st, while convincing him it's for drunks & pot smokers to be jailed with. Not those who complain about the price of bacon.
He will then leave it be, so insurance companies have another tool to raise your rates with. OMB doesn't even drive a car, so why would he care?

Why go into all the reasons that lobbyists & Congressional members both want, & need,
(to keep the criminal campaign financing scheme)
these new vehicles (by 2026), to surveillance there drivers? If you cannot see it by now, you probably never will.
A few pages from the Inflation Reduction Act... how can anyone say those 3 words without laughing like Bevis & Butthead..
They should have also called this 2026 Impaired driving law, the Bud Light Enjoyment Act


No money in unlocking cars that go against legislative momentum. Just buy an s550 & live life. It's the same car underneath anyway.

We only dodged a bullet for an election cycle or 2 at best. Progressives & anti-civilization/climate changers will not stop worshipping the right to kill off the human population by not reproducing, or killing the offspring before they are born..

It's your right to choose, isn't it? To bad the current leaderships parents didn't also believe what they do about rights.

 

[Angrey]

The Inflation Reduction Act law (below) that prohibits Impaired driving by 2026, via technology implemented into every vehicle sold in the USA-
will derail this entire thread & the idea that coming bk ea yr is anything other than entertainment for the ego. Nobody is going to get away with overriding these new cars pcm's at some point very soon. You would be advocating for drunk driving if you did - or that's what they will say... ohh. & that you're a Racist, for racing your cars around the streets of LA & Chicago.

Anybody really think that Spirited Driving, is somehow different than, Impaired Driving? Please explain to the rest of us that the telematics software engineering teams at ea car manufacturer will know....wait..will care, if there is a difference between the 2.

These cars are not getting unlocked once this law goes into effect, as this will only prompt more patches to stop the tampering. Do they even sell enough s650s to warrant the need to unlock them. Is there really any money in it? I don't think the Mustang will survive without the Camaro and Challenger to trade verbal blows with.
C & D as well as Motortrend can only compare the Stang to the Vette in so many ridiculous ways...

The law will likely stand, unless Orange Man Bad steps in. (Doubtful)
They will just tell him how wonderful he is 1st, while convincing him it's for drunks & pot smokers to be jailed with. Not those who complain about the price of bacon.
He will then leave it be, so insurance companies have another tool to raise your rates with. OMB doesn't even drive a car, so why would he care?

Why go into all the reasons that lobbyists & Congressional members both want, & need,
(to keep the criminal campaign financing scheme)
these new vehicles (by 2026), to surveillance there drivers? If you cannot see it by now, you probably never will.
A few pages from the Inflation Reduction Act... how can anyone say those 3 words without laughing like Bevis & Butthead..
They should have also called this 2026 Impaired driving law, the Bud Light Enjoyment Act


No money in unlocking cars that go against legislative momentum. Just buy an s550 & live life. It's the same car underneath anyway.

We only dodged a bullet for an election cycle or 2 at best. Progressives & anti-civilization/climate changers will not stop worshipping the right to kill off the human population by not reproducing, or killing the offspring before they are born..

It's your right to choose, isn't it? To bad the current leaderships parents didn't also believe what they do about rights.

Be careful saying that the S550 is the same car. Those who are financially dependent upon the opposite may come running with torches and ropes (and anyone who's been duped into paying 20%+ more for virtually the same car).

 

[MidwayJ]

Surprisingly, price isn’t one of the most popular gripes they hear...

I doubt the dealer was being honest about that. Better to cite factors completely beyond their control than imply they could sell more cars by offering generous discounts.

 

[MidwayJ]

Anybody really think that Spirited Driving, is somehow different than, Impaired Driving? Please explain to the rest of us that the telematics software engineering teams at ea car manufacturer will know....wait..will care, if there is a difference between the 2.

Seems doubtful they could get away with that, given law enforcement officers aren't permitted to conclude, for example, that all speeding drivers are impaired.

 

[mejohn50]

Not an S650, but interesting progress that’s relevant to this discussion. Wish I knew more, but it sounds like they’re using FuelTech to control the engine and 10R80.

I also realize this is more race than street, and that fuel pump is hilariously loud, but I know I’ll be following this to see how they progress with it.

 

[Oakley]

I really don't see why people need to tune the cars unless you're modding the hell out of it.
this isn't like in the 2000's where its a 3500lb car with barely 300hp.
I've never once been like "man i wish my car had a little more".

I mean the new GT's start at nearly 500hp.

with that said there is a rosetta stone somewhere for this problem and i garuntee you someone will find it or leak it or just find a way around it.

the problem right now is probably that most of the people doing the "hacking" aren't pen testers familiar with breaching sophisticated security.

My guess is that all the data being sent across the vehicle network is encrypted with some key which means you can't just go poking around till you find something that looks relevant because everything looks like gibberish due to the encryption.

kudos to ford for doing a good job on securing their digital assets because this is the right way to do it as opposed to denying warranties and suing people.

 

[Oakley]

I’ve heard that from the 2 dealerships I deal with too. Surprisingly, price isn’t one of the most popular gripes they hear, as that’s the biggest gripe over on 7G.

Both dealers have a 60th car in Wimbledon in their showrooms. It’s actually a really nice car and I like the 60th wheels (a fair amount of people seem to not like them). The premium screen isn’t terrible but would benefit from better integration and a couple of knobs

the 60th wheels are SICK dude. perfection.

 

[K4fxd]

I really don't see why people need to tune the cars unless you're modding the hell out of it.

Because I own the car. No other reason necessary.

 

[Angrey]

I really don't see why people need to tune the cars unless you're modding the hell out of it.
this isn't like in the 2000's where its a 3500lb car with barely 300hp.
I've never once been like "man i wish my car had a little more".

I mean the new GT's start at nearly 500hp.

with that said there is a rosetta stone somewhere for this problem and i garuntee you someone will find it or leak it or just find a way around it.

the problem right now is probably that most of the people doing the "hacking" aren't pen testers familiar with breaching sophisticated security.

My guess is that all the data being sent across the vehicle network is encrypted with some key which means you can't just go poking around till you find something that looks relevant because everything looks like gibberish due to the encryption.

kudos to ford for doing a good job on securing their digital assets because this is the right way to do it as opposed to denying warranties and suing people.

Even if you don't want to make insane power, the flexibility in tuning the car to run on convenient fuel is a big benefit.

I'm not interested in doping fuel every tank and I'm not a fan of relying on the quality of pump 93.

So outside of just wanting 4 digit output, it comes down to the beautiful world we have with the S550 where we can tune it for E85, race fuel, pump or anything in between.

Then there's all sorts of other items like headers and exhaust, being able to modify your car and not have it be such an affair to update a tune, change gear ratios, swap drivetrain components like transmissions, etc, etc.

The S550 platform may have been peak enthusiast. We may never again see a car with as much convenience and flexibility for making it anything from how you want it to look to flat out race car levels.

 

[engineermike]

The S550 platform may have been peak enthusiast. We may never again see a car with as much convenience and flexibility for making it anything from how you want it to look to flat out race car levels.

On one hand I can agree that it’s completely insane that we can make 1000 crank hp mostly-reliably on a stock sealed drivetrain when a supercharger and e85 are added. How could it get better than this?

On the other hand I’ve thought at least 10 times over the years that “this is it, we’re done”. I thought it when efi/computer controls happened. I thought it when obd2 happened. I thought it when rear o2 sensors happened. I think it now but I’ve been wrong so many times, I hope I’m wrong again.

 

[mejohn50]

I really don't see why people need to tune the cars unless you're modding the hell out of it.

Like @K4fxd said, because it’s mine and I want to. And like @Angrey said, because flex fuel, race gas, intakes, headers, etc.

There is so much that can be done on a completely stock car to make it drive quite differently. One of the biggest things these cars benefit from is calibrating the borderline ignition timing tables for 93 octane rather than 87. This doesn’t necessarily increase peak power, but it gets the engine to peak timing quicker.

On my, currently, completely stock 10R80 GT the main adjustments I’ve made to the calibration do the following: 93 octane timing tables, enabled PCMTEC flex fuel, optimized WOT cam timing, throttle pedal translation changes, slightly raised WOT shift points, and Dark Horse shift schedules and torque converter schedules. Is the car faster? I don’t know, maybe slightly on 93 (obviously it’s faster on E85). Did those few changes make it much more fun to drive? Absolutely.

 

[Rolls]

Problem right now is probably that most of the people doing the "hacking" aren't pen testers familiar with breaching sophisticated security.

kudos to ford for doing a good job on securing their digital assets because this is the right way to do it as opposed to denying warranties and suing people.

You have it spot on. The people who are good at cracking things like this get paid upwards of 500k a year at the NSA or google. The rest of us do it for the love of it. There are far more profitable legal avenues for people with the skill set required.

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