As promised, it's been a year since we debated cracking the Gen7 PCM........

[MAGS1]

This should be posted on 7G.

They aren’t as fun over there LOL.

Sponsored

 

[robvas]

They would tell you they don't want tuning and enjoy their cars exactly as ford intended them to be...

 

[daSNAK3]

They would tell you they don't want tuning and enjoy their cars exactly as ford intended them to be...

Sounds.... laaaaaaaaaaaaame.

 

[K4fxd]

They aren’t as fun over there LOL.

They have no sense of humor thats for sure. I said the headlights were hideous and I got banned.

 

[mejohn50]

I wanted to add that I believe the S650 progress may be farther along than people realize. There are OEM S650 calibration files floating around in HP Tuners format, so they can at least read the PCM, and I bet a shiny nickel if they can read the PCM they can write to the PCM. That would mean the issue is making the car play nice with a non-OEM calibration. Maybe that's a huge problem, maybe it's dead simple and literally no one is working on it because there's no money in modifying the most modified car on the planet.

We have seen this before many times. There have been multiple platforms in recent history that were "un-crackable" and never to be tuned, but they have all been unlocked. If the demand is there, and the EPA doesn't stop it, the market will find a way to meet that demand.

I often speculate, based on nothing other than a hunch, that when a complex new platform comes out, like the C8 or S650, part of the reason we don't get tuning as quickly as we might have in the past is not necessarily due to effort and complexity, it's due to wanting to keep the exploit secret to see if it potentially works on future special editions or updated models. Maybe I am completely wrong and getting the exploit to market quickly is worth more than having more possible future customers, I am truly just speculating based on no real information.

I think the real bottom line is the days of "cheap" tunes are gone on new cars, even when the OEM PCM is cracked. Some of the tuning packages for the C8 are $3-5k for a "basic" tune. The BMW Supra requires a $2k+ hardware unlock and then a tune. On the off chance the car never gets cracked, which again I don't think is realistic, the only option is to hope stand alone PCM (or piggyback, barf) manufacturers develop a solution for us. That is big money and has its own set of compromises.

 

[MAGS1]

So, even assuming someone cracks it, considering S650 is a connected car, will the car sense a non-OEM tune (I consider the Whipple, Roush, etc tunes OEM since they are Ford approved), phone home for help and essentially brick the car? That’s probably the bigger issue unless you can somehow override all of that. And that may require breaking into some of the other computers in the car if they’re all connected.

That’s well beyond my knowledge, so someone that understands how all that works can hopefully provide some info there

 

[mejohn50]

So, even assuming someone cracks it, considering S650 is a connected car, will the car sense a non-OEM tune (I consider the Whipple, Roush, etc tunes OEM since they are Ford approved), phone home for help and essentially brick the car? That’s probably the bigger issue unless you can somehow override all of that. And that may require breaking into some of the other computers in the car if they’re all connected.

That’s well beyond my knowledge, so someone that understands how all that works can hopefully provide some info there

I believe that’s part of the issue. Have to make the phone home system and all the other modules play nice with a non-OEM calibration.

 

[robvas]

I wanted to add that I believe the S650 progress may be farther along than people realize. There are OEM S650 calibration files floating around in HP Tuners format, so they can at least read the PCM, and I bet a shiny nickel if they can read the PCM they can write to the PCM. That would mean the issue is making the car play nice with a non-OEM calibration. Maybe that's a huge problem, maybe it's dead simple and literally no one is working on it because there's no money in modifying the most modified car on the planet.

They had those almost immediately. But that has nothing to do with writing a tune, and that has nothing to do with the computer running on that tune.

That's the big problem. I'm guessing you have to have a key to encrypt or at least sign the new ECU file, and only Ford has the key. Perhaps they created a key for Whipple.

Similar to how Microsoft requires developers to sign their drivers and Apple makes Mac developers sign their applications. Unsigned applications won't run.

So in theory you could also physically modify the ECU like the Hellcat guys have to do. Not exactly sure what they do there. Remember the mod chips for Playstations? Does it just bypass the check for the 'legitimacy' of the ECU file? I'm assuming the dealers can write to the ECU with a device so it shouldn't be unlocking write capability.

Then the next thing is does the car report back to Ford and say which ECU file it's using, and then Ford can either re-flash it, disable it, etc.

 

[Angrey]

Some thoughts and perspectives.

1) Even for someone like MOTEC to create the canbus system to make their tune integrate is very involved. Like months and years involved. Which is why they don't offer their system for all trims of mustangs. So it's not just the PCM and the engine controls you have to worry about, it's the rest of the car systems I think that will ultimately make this issue a bridge too far.

As others have pointed out, even if you're able to tune the car, how will that fly with the other systems. As posted previously, the new Ford operating system isn't a bunch of separate and disparate control modules that are integrated. It's now a "stack" of file suites.

2) If we're doing a fair comparison, the 6th gen mustang was in a state where you didn't need to send your computer off (suffering weeks or months of downtime) to be semi-permanently modified to tune it. It can simply be reflashed.

I suspect that even IF they "crack" it, it will be similar to the Dodge guys where you have to make a pretty hard and fairly irreversible choice to have the PCM sent off and either swapped for a modified PCM or have yours modified.

3) How will this affect warranty and whether Ford will be able to recognize that it's been modified? We can be dismissive and say anyone willing or needing to reflash their tune doesn't really care about warranty, but as we've seen in the 6G community, at the dealer level, there's plenty of people who could update a tune, rock a cold air and some headers and then revert it back should they need warranty work done. Sure, dealers could run a start cycle report and higher up they could tell, but there were plenty of people that could get service work done on something like the transmission or even the motor and still maintain their warranty even though the car had been tuned, as it wasn't justification enough for Ford to deny it.

Will that be the case even IF the S650 is cracked?

Part of the complexity of one of my hopes (that oversease companies offer a completely aftermarket and stand alone system) is that the 7th gen is DI and therefore needs more ports than the typical M150 system (or similar) can handle. Maybe there's a solution where they eliminate the DI and just go back to PI only and there's some physical adapter or modification to remove the DI components. But the EPA under the last administration created fear among everyone. Not sure how long (if ever) that threat takes to leave. People were scared to even create monitoring or metering or gauge products for fear of the EPA's wrath.

 

[robvas]

I suspect that even IF they "crack" it, it will be similar to the Dodge guys where you have to make a pretty hard and fairly irreversible choice to have the PCM sent off and either swapped for a modified PCM or have yours modified.

I think most people would be just fine with that. Plus it's only like $250 to do.

 

[mejohn50]

1) Even for someone like MOTEC to create the canbus system to make their tune integrate is very involved. Like months and years involved. Which is why they don't offer their system for all trims of mustangs. So it's not just the PCM and the engine controls you have to worry about, it's the rest of the car systems I think that will ultimately make this issue a bridge too far.

I think I, at least broadly, addressed that when I said they’d have to “develop a solution” for us. I’m quite aware of the firmware complexities that the stand alone companies have to deal with in a modern car. I also made it clear that it wouldn’t be cheap if they developed anything at all.

As others have pointed out, even if you're able to tune the car, how will that fly with the other systems. As posted previously, the new Ford operating system isn't a bunch of separate and disparate control modules that are integrated. It's now a "stack" of file suites.

Again, I’m fairly certain I addressed this when saying that the non-OEM calibration needs to play nice with the rest of the car. I think this is the stage we are at in the development process.

2) If we're doing a fair comparison, the 6th gen mustang was in a state where you didn't need to send your computer off (suffering weeks or months of downtime) to be semi-permanently modified to tune it. It can simply be reflashed.

I suspect that even IF they "crack" it, it will be similar to the Dodge guys where you have to make a pretty hard and fairly irreversible choice to have the PCM sent off and either swapped for a modified PCM or have yours modified.

A non-issue. Many modern platforms have proven that people are willing to tolerate a hardware crack to have a modified car. Nothing new here.

3) How will this affect warranty and whether Ford will be able to recognize that it's been modified? We can be dismissive and say anyone willing or needing to reflash their tune doesn't really care about warranty, but as we've seen in the 6G community, at the dealer level, there's plenty of people who could update a tune, rock a cold air and some headers and then revert it back should they need warranty work done. Sure, dealers could run a start cycle report and higher up they could tell, but there were plenty of people that could get service work done on something like the transmission or even the motor and still maintain their warranty even though the car had been tuned, as it wasn't justification enough for Ford to deny it.

Ford can already tell if an S550 has been tuned, it’s just a matter of how much they care. Car modifying has quite dramatically turned into a “pay to play” game. If you can’t afford a $2000 crack, a $500 flasher, and $1000 tune for your CAI only car…go home and leave the car alone. That’s the world we are living in with modern cars.

Part of the complexity of one of my hopes (that oversease companies offer a completely aftermarket and stand alone system) is that the 7th gen is DI and therefore needs more ports than the typical M150 system (or similar) can handle. Maybe there's a solution where they eliminate the DI and just go back to PI only and there's some physical adapter or modification to remove the DI components. But the EPA under the last administration created fear among everyone. Not sure how long (if ever) that threat takes to leave. People were scared to even create monitoring or metering or gauge products for fear of the EPA's wrath.

Everything I understand about the M150 is it can support DI. I also believe it can support DI and PI, it’s the firmware that’s the limitation. Maybe it takes one of MOTEC’s expansion systems or two PCMs, but it CAN support DI and PI across at least ten cylinders as far as I’ve been lead to believe. The Huracan has DI and PI just like the 3rd gen Coyote, and there’s plenty of them running around with MOTECs on board.

 

[mejohn50]

I think most people would be just fine with that. Plus it's only like $250 to do.

I‘d gladly pay for a hardware crack if that’s what it took. Even if it was BMW Supra level money. They’re like $2k+ for a crack and/or PCM clone depending on generation.

 

[Angrey]

I think I, at least broadly, addressed that when I said they’d have to “develop a solution” for us. I’m quite aware of the firmware complexities that the stand alone companies have to deal with in a modern car. I also made it clear that it wouldn’t be cheap if they developed anything at all.



Again, I’m fairly certain I addressed this when saying that the non-OEM calibration needs to play nice with the rest of the car. I think this is the stage we are at in the development process.



A non-issue. Many modern platforms have proven that people are willing to tolerate a hardware crack to have a modified car. Nothing new here.



Ford can already tell if an S550 has been tuned, it’s just a matter of how much they care. Car modifying has quite dramatically turned into a “pay to play” game. If you can’t afford a $2000 crack, a $500 flasher, and $1000 tune for your CAI only car…go home and leave the car alone. That’s the world we are living in with modern cars.



Everything I understand about the M150 is it can support DI. I also believe it can support DI and PI, it’s the firmware that’s the limitation. Maybe it takes one of MOTEC’s expansion systems or two PCMs, but it CAN support DI and PI across at least ten cylinders as far as I’ve been lead to believe. The Huracan has DI and PI just like the 3rd gen Coyote, and there’s plenty of them running around with MOTECs on board.

MOTEC doesn't offer (that I'm aware of) a DI solution for the gen3 mustang. Maybe the M150 has the port capacity, but it's a firmware issue as you said.

And I guess where we're disagreeing is on the term "cracked." The idea that we're ever going to get back to where the Gen6 was is highly unlikely. Maybe it ends up being partially broken where you have to send your computer off (like the Dodge crowd). Better than than locked but not quite to the same level of convenience and openness we have with the 6G.

Again, all this is highly speculative from the get, because they haven't even cracked the encryption yet to move on to all these anticipated follow on challenges.

The rumor is that the DCT is now just fully cracked and whether someone will offer a TCM that can finally "tune" it's parameters without some sorta creative trickery or workaround. That only took 5 years. By the time someone cracks the 7G Ford will be dreaming up it's next gen disaster.

 

[mejohn50]

MOTEC doesn't offer (that I'm aware of) a DI solution for the gen3 mustang. Maybe the M150 has the port capacity, but it's a firmware issue as you said.

You said, below, the M150 doesn’t have enough ports for DI and PI. I don’t believe that’s true. Like you said now, it’s firmware not hardware capabilities.

Part of the complexity of one of my hopes (that oversease companies offer a completely aftermarket and stand alone system) is that the 7th gen is DI and therefore needs more ports than the typical M150 system (or similar) can handle. Maybe there's a solution where they eliminate the DI and just go back to PI only and there's some physical adapter or modification to remove the DI components.

And I guess where we're disagreeing is on the term "cracked." The idea that we're ever going to get back to where the Gen6 was is highly unlikely. Maybe it ends up being partially broken where you have to send your computer off (like the Dodge crowd). Better than than locked but not quite to the same level of convenience and openness we have with the 6G.

Send the PCM out, pay the money, do whatever you want to it. It’s just one more, likely costly, step. That’s it. It’s part of the game. If we cared about “open” platforms, we would all still have carburetors and points ignition systems. Can’t encrypt that or overwrite the calibration from the cloud.

Again, all this is highly speculative from the get, because they haven't even cracked the encryption yet to move on to all these anticipated follow on challenges.

I am quite certain the S650 PCM can be written. That part is likely solved. It’s getting it to play nice with the rest of the car.

The rumor is that the DCT is now just fully cracked and whether someone will offer a TCM that can finally "tune" it's parameters without some sorta creative trickery or workaround. That only took 5 years. By the time someone cracks the 7G Ford will be dreaming up it's next gen disaster.

5 years < forever. So what if it takes time. You’re moving the goal posts.

 

[Jasonb543]

My 2024 whipple car is tuned to the Tits, even had a newer revision with more trans features

love love love it, and no need for whiny aftermarket tuners, can run race gas, E30, 15lbs of boost on the street set up.

Sponsored