Engine knock 2019 GT with Ford tune, no codes.

[StangTime]

Finally had a free moment to myself and got the car out to datalog with the KnkAdder enabled in the Procal. It's the 6th one down on the graphs. I don't know how to read this. KnkAdder is at zero idleing and cruising. But not when I get on it. I take it this is a bad thing? I'm not driving the car that hard.
@EFI what do you make of these?

Going uphill:

Slightly longer, less incline hill:

Same hill as above but more throttle:

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[Grimreaper]

It looks like its adding timing which is fine. Few negative blips but this isn't what most normally see with the pinging associated from previous gen Ford tunes and octane limits.

Usually you'll see it max out the range (hi or lo depending on how the scanners reading) then you might hear audible pinging like marbles in a coffee can. But its not until the ECU is out of range to reduce timing that you'd hear it.

Any exhaust mods?

 

[StangTime]

It looks like its adding timing which is fine. Few negative blips but this isn't what most normally see with the pinging associated from previous gen Ford tunes and octane limits.

Usually you'll see it max out the range (hi or lo depending on how the scanners reading) then you might hear audible pinging like marbles in a coffee can. But its not until the ECU is out of range to reduce timing that you'd hear it.

Any exhaust mods?

So if KnkAdder is going negative it's pulling timing?
Zero exhaust mods. My car does have active exhaust though.

 

[Angrey]

I didn't realize how much knock retard the my car employs until I got an Ngauge and I could monitor spark advance and knock retard. Just cruising at low rpm in high gear with the cruise on, you can watch the motor pull timing as it labors up a slight incline and then REALLY stretch it's legs and run a ton of timing on a downhill.

Point is, the coyote platform is supposed to run up to and into knock and then back the motor off slightly. But you should NEVER hear an audile "knock" like lugging of the motor, if you do, it's not good for your motor and eventually a component is going to say uncle.

Ford ought to have their asses kicked for fielding a 12:1 compression motor without DI. At least on the Gen3 you get the knock resistance of cooling the mixture before the violence ensues.

The problem here is that there's no way to test the quality of the fuel you're putting in.

It's a little late now but you might consider running a tank of 93 with max amount of booster and see if you're still getting audible concerns at the conditions you were before. If you're getting rod knock now, that won't eliminate it, but when you say "sounds like a diesel" that's a tell tale sign of rod knock.

 

[ice445]

So if KnkAdder is going negative it's pulling timing?
Zero exhaust mods. My car does have active exhaust though.

I'm not 100% sure on this, but I believe knock adder works on a positive scale only, and the amount being "added" is the amount of timing being reduced.

 

[Grimreaper]

Based on how that scanners reading, I'd say yes. Looks like bit if noise from the clutch engagement after the shift which is usually inconsistent but normal. Small high load area with few degrees being added after.

Trim out the other channels when logging. Pedal/rpm/maf / timing and knock adder. I'd log all timing channels. Usually one is based on mbt and when graphed against actual timing it gets easier to see how far from the goal things really are.

 

[Grimreaper]

I'm not 100% sure on this, but I believe knock adder works on a positive scale only, and the amount being "added" is the amount of timing being reduced.

Unfortunately it depends on the scanner and how it deciphers the PID. With hp tuners you can log it both ways. + = add or + = subtract.

My experience with Ford procal is limited but it was adding for +. If they have the tune switching to per cyl mode it will usually stop registering once that happens.

 

[StangTime]

I'm not 100% sure on this, but I believe knock adder works on a positive scale only, and the amount being "added" is the amount of timing being reduced.

So looking at any one of the graphs with a high KnkAdder value, the TimingAdv is also staying high. Doesn't look like timing is being reduced due to anything KnkAdder is doing. Am I correct?

Based on how that scanners reading, I'd say yes. Looks like bit if noise from the clutch engagement after the shift which is usually inconsistent but normal. Small high load area with few degrees being added after.

Trim out the other channels when logging. Pedal/rpm/maf / timing and knock adder. I'd log all timing channels. Usually one is based on mbt and when graphed against actual timing it gets easier to see how far from the goal things really are.

Sadly, the Procal4 is lacking. Nothing like what the HP Tuners offer. I can only log 7 parameters at a time.
These are the parameters related to timing and that's it:

-KnkSen1_Cnts - Raw noise data from Knock sensor bank 1
-KnkSen2_Cnts - Raw noise data from knock sensor bank 2
-Lrnd_knk_Mod - Not sure?
-KnKAdder - Timing corrections based on knock sensor feedbacks
-Oct_Adjust - Reads 0 all the time?
-Spark 1
-Spark 2
-Spark 3
-Spark 4

The problem here is that there's no way to test the quality of the fuel you're putting in.

It's a little late now but you might consider running a tank of 93 with max amount of booster and see if you're still getting audible concerns at the conditions you were before. If you're getting rod knock now, that won't eliminate it, but when you say "sounds like a diesel" that's a tell tale sign of rod knock.

I'm running on a full tank of Shell V-Power 91. Never had any problem with this gas/gas station.
When I say "sounds like a diesel" that's the noise it makes at idle. The TSB19-2144 describes this noise. My noise seems beyond moderate.

Then there is the knocking diesel sound that I keep hearing only during acceleration in that range of 1500 to 3000 RPM. It happens under moderate throttle and especially prone to happen if I stay in that RPM range when accelerating up small hills. I never hear it when downshifting. When I made my logs last night, I wasn't 100% sure I was hearing knock due to road & exhaust noise. I realized after that I was driving in "sport" mode which makes the exhaust louder and harder to hear the knock.

Thank you for everyone's input so far.

 

[stang1087]

@StangTime I started data logging mine after seeing your post on the performance tune thread. I also get high knock counts on sensor 1 and 2 but nothing on KnKAdder. I think mine is related to valvetrain since the tick is louder when I remove the oil fill cap.

I can data log some stuff to compare to your if you'd like. I don't think my old logs are relevant since I had an issue with an oil catch can I had installed at that time.

 

[StangTime]

@StangTime I started data logging mine after seeing your post on the performance tune thread. I also get high knock counts on sensor 1 and 2 but nothing on KnKAdder. I think mine is related to valvetrain since the tick is louder when I remove the oil fill cap.

I can data log some stuff to compare to your if you'd like. I don't think my old logs are relevant since I had an issue with an oil catch can I had installed at that time.

That would be great if I could compare to yours!
If you can... are you able to log a few 10 - 12 second logs up a slight hill?

I think the following are useful:
RPM
Timing Adv
KnkAdder
KnkSen1_Cnts
KnkSen2_Cnts
Engine load

Much appreciated!

 

[stang1087]

I gotta say now that it's cooled down a bit that was fun.

This is my full drive (about 20 mins) as I searched for some hills large enough to take 10 seconds to get up.

This is a pretty long hill where I was able to go full throttle a bit before coming up to a red light.

This is a longer hill with a decent grade but with traffic so I wasn't able to get above 40 mph.

Let me know if there is a specific section you'd like me to zoom in on.

 

[StangTime]

I gotta say now that it's cooled down a bit that was fun.
Let me know if there is a specific section you'd like me to zoom in on.

This car sure loves those cold air temps.
From reading your graphs, it looks like the KnkAdder and counts behave similar to mine. This confirms the KnkAdder readings are not proving that I have definite engine knock. Are you getting any knocking sound on tip-in and moderate acceleration between 1500 and 3000 RPMS ? I really hope I'm hearing something that's not coming from the block. Soon it will be time to put it away and I'll have some time to inspect everything. Sadly I won't be able to road test until spring.
Thank you for grabbing that data and let me know how much I owe you for gas! LOL

 

[stang1087]

I get more of what I'd call a ticking sound (not the bbq tick) under acceleration from 1500 and up. I suspect it's valve train related since it's louder when I pull the oil fill cap. I even pulled the plugs and ran a bore scope into the cylinders. The plugs all looked good and nothing jumped out in the cylinders. If I were to guess my noise is vvt or timing chain related or but I don't have any codes.

I guess I could revert to stock to see if it is related to the performance pack but it doesn't bug me enough to do that yet.

 

[StangTime]

I get more of what I'd call a ticking sound (not the bbq tick) under acceleration from 1500 and up. I suspect it's valve train related since it's louder when I pull the oil fill cap. I even pulled the plugs and ran a bore scope into the cylinders. The plugs all looked good and nothing jumped out in the cylinders. If I were to guess my noise is vvt or timing chain related or but I don't have any codes.

I guess I could revert to stock to see if it is related to the performance pack but it doesn't bug me enough to do that yet.

I was considering going back to stock just to see if there is a difference. But that's a pain to do.
My car has the cold engine VVT exhaust solenoid noise. It makes a decreasing ratcheting noise when releasing the throttle. It goes away completely when the engine has warmed up but maybe it mutates into the noise I am hearing when the engine is good and hot.
VVT exhaust solenoid noise on a Coyote F-150. Exactly this when cold. Also not throwing any codes:

 

[stang1087]

I don't think I have the VVT ratcheting noise although It's hard to test without someone to rev the motor for me.

I crawled under the car yesterday and found an exhaust leak caused by a loose exhaust clamp and my rear shifter mount was not tightened up either. Of course that reduced some of the noise I'm hearing. Although I don't know why I was hearing a tick from the passenger side when I found the exhaust leak on the driver side.

I still have some noise coming from the engine but it sounds more like a noisy valvetrain and the DI pump. My old 2001 GT had a noisier valvetrain so maybe that's just part of an OHC Ford engine? I grabbed some video of it but it didn't come across well enough to show what I'm hearing.

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