Mid Corner Throttle?

[TeeLew]

IThen again I drive my car like I do my bikes.

in contrast with say the Car&Driver Fastest Lap videos where the driver was stomping (instant 0-100%) on the gas many times during the lap.

A vehicle under power is a predictable and stable platform.

1. Bikes & cars are chalk & cheese in terms of driving style.
2. The C&D guys are generally ex-pros & doing it right.
3. If you need stability, do that with chassis tuning, not driving. That approach makes for a really nasty feedback loop.

Sponsored

 

[Radiation Joe]

Let's all remember he was driving a GT3. Porsche mantra is maintenance throttle through the turn, never let off. This advice is not relevant to a Mustang.

TeeLew-ism #1
In low speed corners, if you have to go to maintenance throttle, then you've probably overslowed the entry. In high speed corners, if you don't have some amount of throttle, you're probably too slow. In both situations, it creates understeer. *Everyone* is faster in a high speed road course corner with a little understeer, even the ones who claim otherwise.

I'm glad to hear someone else say this. I've always told people I like oversteer more for my street settings than my track settings.

 

[Norm Peterson]

Let's all remember he was driving a GT3. Porsche mantra is maintenance throttle through the turn, never let off. This advice is not relevant to a Mustang.

Certainly true, and I have a feeling that many 911 drivers make an overly broad interpretation as to what 'maintenance throttle' actually means.


TeeLew-ism #1
In low speed corners, if you have to go to maintenance throttle, then you've probably overslowed the entry. In high speed corners, if you don't have some amount of throttle, you're probably too slow. In both situations, it creates understeer. *Everyone* is faster in a high speed road course corner with a little understeer, even the ones who claim otherwise.

I'm glad to hear someone else say this. I've always told people I like oversteer more for my street settings than my track settings.

My guess here - at street speeds you're probably just closer to neutral, understeer budget-wise.


Norm

 

[Radiation Joe]

My guess here - at street speeds you're probably just closer to neutral, understeer budget-wise.

Norm

Spot on. I don't have that margin of error at track speeds.

 

[Norm Peterson]

The question really is what should I do mid corner? I thought mid corner was for trail braking but here's the detail:
Exotics Racing in Vegas.
Porsche 911 GT3
Instructor told me to use more throttle mid corner. I thought mid corner was for trail braking? Was my entry speed not fast enough and warrents throttle?

Randy Pobst has tips for people going to the track. One of them is that he says the throttle pedal is the fire arm trigger. Pull the trigger omly when you're pointed at the target. A little bit of power can be required to stabilize the car.

Which should I take away for my GT? Are both correct due to situations?

Mid-corner to me has always meant the part in the middle after the braking but before significant acceleration on corner exit, where the tires are primarily doing cornering. It gets a bit fuzzy when you start combining cornering with either braking or acceleration as you try to stay as close to the "friction circle" (ellipse?) as possible, but there's still going to be some distance between the end of braking and the point of significant acceleration. You should be at or near peak lat-g there, and be there not from having to accelerate up to whatever speed that corresponds to in that corner.

I saw this link, too.

Maximise the Mid-Corner Phase - Learn to Carry More Speed (driver61.com)


Norm

 

[shogun32]

Maximise the Mid-Corner Phase - Learn to Carry More Speed (driver61.com)

which is exactly how you ride a motorcycle. Just because MotoGP guys with 200+HP can make a V out of a corner doesn't make it 'good' and proper.

I try to be on the gas as close to the Entry | MId line depicted on that drawing as I can. Brakes are highly disruptive to chassis balance and traction. Throttle is a weak input by comparison and easily modulated. Plus at high slip angles you're scrubbing speed anyway so small but steadily increasing throttle not only maintains speed thru the corner, it weights the chassis for the upcoming more rapid application of throttle.

A chassis that is not actively under brake or gas is unstable and unpredictable. You're at the mercy of damping harmonics from the last set of inputs.

If I get head nod at any time from transitioning off the brakes and into throttle and all the way to exit, the corner was done badly. I like to think I have a passenger holding a full and uncovered glass of water in their hand. The trick is to not slosh the liquid into their lap.

Now racers probably drive different because if you're nice and smooth someone is going to do a banzai to cram their car up the inside with the tires smoking. Park it in the apex and then floor the gas. I hate such people.

 

[fatbillybob]

The question really is what should I do mid corner?

It depends on what your steering wheel is doing.

 

[shogun32]

It depends on what your steering wheel is doing.

I'm sure it's been said by many an instructor but there is a string tied to your wheel and gas pedal. They move together in harmony. (gymkana, drifting and world rally racing do not apply)

 

[Hangman77]

I think the answer is relatively easy to answer. Keep driving the course until you don’t need to get on the throttle in the middle of the corner. Only until you need to apply throttle while unwinding the wheel until your WOT.

Keep driving it again and again until you get it just right.

 

[Shadow277]

Don't take this wrong, but if Exotic Driver guy was any good, he wouldn't be there. Randy will have much better advice.

Speaking in broad generalities, let's separate corners by gear. There are no first or sixth gear corners, but 2nd & 3rd are low speed and 4th-5th high speed.

In low speed corners, if you have to go to maintenance throttle, then you've probably overslowed the entry. In high speed corners, if you don't have some amount of throttle, you're probably too slow. In both situations, it creates understeer. *Everyone* is faster in a high speed road course corner with a little understeer, even the ones who claim otherwise.

TeeLew-ism #1: In a low speed corner, the point at which you initiate throttle is insignificant. The point at which you reach full throttle is vital. Generally speaking, the earlier in the corner you initiate the throttle, the later you will achieve full. Patience with the initial application will almost always pay dividends by allowing a more rapid application. Zero-to-full throttle should take on the order of 1 second. If you have to 'catch' the rear with the throttle to avoid spinning, the car has too much oversteer and needs a chassis adjustment to provide a better rear end.

Now I wish I had a track app. Had a yellow Mustang, same gen and stock like mine was. A slow hairpin turn comes up and I get razor close to the inside wall and I create a huge gap since it was the longest straight away, making us go into 5th gear. He doesn't take it has sharp as I do but in all the technical cornering, he gets me every time.

Is it still tough to say what I did right and wrong?

 

[Shadow277]

I think the answer is relatively easy to answer. Keep driving the course until you don’t need to get on the throttle in the middle of the corner. Only until you need to apply throttle while unwinding the wheel until your WOT.

Keep driving it again and again until you get it just right.

Trail and error it seems like. I need a go pro or at least something to keep my lap times. One thing I'm good at with go karting here im town is consistency. But that's it, so I'm doing the wrong thing consistently hahaha.

 

[shogun32]

and lap times mask where you're committing your errors. You want segment time. turn-in point to corner exit. Entry speed, mid-corner speed, exit speed. Forget total lap time.

I think it was Randy that said Karting and F1 are the curse of motorsports. They are such perversions in technique and setup that drivers who come from those backgrounds mislead Porsche (and others) to design their cars wrong.

I forget which 911 Randy was talking about but I think it was the latest gen GT2 and 3 that they FINALLY pulled their head out of the karting ass and did the balance right for once. I think it was a VinWiki episode on YouTube.

I've heard it described that 911 driving is it's own peculiar and specialized skill that doesn't easily translate to 'normal' cars.

 

[shogun32]

I'm not trying to race my 250cc Honda but I would love to know it's limits to help me avoid an accidient in traffic.

street-level avoidance is by far a factor of SIPDE and regular practice, practice of maximum braking and swerving. Most riders, even those claiming to have 20 years experience suck at all the above.

 

[Hangman77]

Trail and error it seems like. I need a go pro or at least something to keep my lap times. One thing I'm good at with go karting here im town is consistency. But that's it, so I'm doing the wrong thing consistently hahaha.

A lap timer can help. How often are you on the track?

 

[Radiation Joe]

...
Now racers probably drive different because if you're nice and smooth someone is going to do a banzai to cram their car up the inside with the tires smoking. Park it in the apex and then floor the gas. I hate such people.

This is why the fast line through 2 at Laguna is a single apex and the racing line is a double apex.

Sponsored