Is it posible to loss traction with traction control on?

[BmacIL]

The TCS won't let me accelerate past the point of losing traction (not by much, anyway). But what if the traction loss isn't acceleration-induced? What if I enter a corner a bit too fast, and the car understeers? The common wisdom says I should unwind the steering a bit until it grips, then steer again into the corner. But wouldn't it be safer to just keep the wheels turned all the time, so that the advancetrak knows where I want to go? If I do the right thing by momentarily straightening the wheels a bit, won't that confuse the advancetrak?

Please sign up for a performance driving school. Please.

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[Norm Peterson]

The TCS won't let me accelerate past the point of losing traction (not by much, anyway).

And that scares me. You're subconsciously learning to drive with an 'even if the throttle pedal is stomped on, nothing bad will happen' attitude, and that paying attention to driving conditions and to how much tire grip you've got to work with isn't important any more. Wrong answers, both of them.

But what if the traction loss isn't acceleration-induced? What if I enter a corner a bit too fast, and the car understeers?

Driver error that shouldn't have happened. Not even under winter driving conditions where it is easy enough to test straight line acceleration traction to find out how much / how little tire grip exists.

I suspect that entering a corner too hot commonly accompanies turning in too early and finding yourself running out of road on corner exit. Learn how to "late-apex" within the limits of lane width here, and at least the "slow in" part of "slow in, fast out".

For street driving, just backing out of the throttle should be enough correction with or without stability control being present. That transfers some load off the rear tires (making the tail a little 'looser') and back onto the front tires, which will cause them to develop a little more cornering force. Both effects reduce the understeer. You may have to be 'smooth' with this as well, as engine compression braking effects can get the tail too loose.


Norm

 

[Michael_vroomvroom]

The TCS won't let me accelerate past the point of losing traction (not by much, anyway). But what if the traction loss isn't acceleration-induced? What if I enter a corner a bit too fast, and the car understeers? The common wisdom says I should unwind the steering a bit until it grips, then steer again into the corner. But wouldn't it be safer to just keep the wheels turned all the time, so that the advancetrak knows where I want to go? If I do the right thing by momentarily straightening the wheels a bit, won't that confuse the advancetrak?

No. You do the correct thing regardless of what kind of "advance track" system your car has. Isn't driving and sliding on ice/slippery surfaces part of the driving license course in Romania? Do they do things differently depending on how good the "advance track" system in the car used is? How would you know how good the system is? Does it make any sense that you would have to know how good the system is in advance to decide whether you should let the car try to sort it out or do the right thing yourself? What if the car's system fails or has been disabled for some reason?

Do the right thing, and the car's system has to provide less assistance.

 

[shogun32]

Isn't driving and sliding on ice/slippery surfaces part of the driving license course in Romania?

it sure isn't in the USA which probably has the worst and most useless licensing criteria.

 

[Norm Peterson]

But wouldn't it be safer to just keep the wheels turned all the time, so that the advancetrak knows where I want to go? If I do the right thing by momentarily straightening the wheels a bit, won't that confuse the advancetrak?

Not sure. The only experiences that I've had with stability control intervention involved the stability control system being pretty lazy about handing full control back to the driver. I have heard of one instance on a different forum where driver and stability control corrections happened simultaneously, but I don't remember what the outcome was beyond it not being a crash or involving one or more wheels off the pavement.

Throttle-induced oversteer is probably trickier to deal with. Most people have probably heard "steer into the skid" or "steer the car to point it in the direction you want it to go in". Which is fine, so long as you're ready to catch the snap-spin the other way once the car starts its correction. If you watch close from about a minute in, you'll see the first "looseness" pointing the car to the left followed by a much smaller "looseness" to the right (the first minute is mainly for showing the conditions). If you don't know enough to instinctively start unwinding your first correction as the car starts to straighten out, you won't catch the second one, and it'll catch you instead.




Norm

 

[Vlad Soare]

Please sign up for a performance driving school. Please.

I will.

Isn't driving and sliding on ice/slippery surfaces part of the driving license course in Romania?

Sadly, no. Just the basics of getting from A to B, that's all.

 

[Michael_vroomvroom]

it sure isn't in the USA which probably has the worst and most useless licensing criteria.

Ah, I understand you have yet too see the practical part of the test for a driving license in Thailand. Drive straight outside the DMV for about 50m. Turn around and drive back. Then reverse into a parking space. Go collect your license. During the last couple of years I think they introduced a requirement that you need to have some hours (10?) of driving instruction too, before taking the test, but that's quite new.

 

[Norm Peterson]

Michael_vroomvroom said: ↑
Isn't driving and sliding on ice/slippery surfaces part of the driving license course in Romania?

it sure isn't in the USA which probably has the worst and most useless licensing criteria.

Never has been. At best, it's only available through some of the performance driving schools and possibly at the Evolution autocross schools. And even that much only recently.

Those of us who came into our driving where snow was a common occurrence did get our share of . . . well, I guess you could call it "learning on the job" with driving tips given by our parents. A few of us figured out that playing around in open parking lots after the stores had closed for the night was of as much benefit to our skill set as it was fun to do. Sadly, it's not looking good for getting my annual "winter driving refresher course" in this year . . .


Norm

 

[Michael_vroomvroom]

You've been scared by a demonstration that was cherry-picked and carefully choreographed for maximum effect. With results obviously possible in a softly sprung sedan (and even more likely in an SUV) but doubtful in the extreme in any Mustang or comparable sporty car built in this century.

It rarely - if ever - happens out in the real street world. But the average Mustang is capable of serious levels of obstacle avoidance without electronic stability control. Anybody who's ever autocrossed one knows that, and that the car has more capability in it without AdvanceTrac than the average driver.

That's cool. I hope I can get some opportunity to try. Wanted to try at this course, but unfortunately was not allowed.

There may be some unavoidable consequences, which may or may not be system- or calibration-specific. My WRX will cut power and drag a brake if it thinks I'm calling for too much power while cornering (from driving with it turned off, I guarantee that Subaru's VDC gets way too nervous way too early). The potential downside is if it does this when you're about to come out of a tight entrance ramp into 65+ mph traffic . . . and you're left just rolling along with nobody awake in the engine room.

Basically, the calibration can be set too conservatively, and there may not be much else you can do about it besides shutting it off.
Norm

I see your point, but what you are describing is something different. You describe the driving aid system (or "nanny") kicking in before you, but perhaps not before the average driver, wants it to kick in. It's not the system's corrections conflicting with your own corrections, as you do not feel the need to do any corrections yet.

 

[Norm Peterson]

I see your point, but what you are describing is something different. You describe the driving aid system (or "nanny") kicking in before you, but perhaps not before the average driver, wants it to kick in. It's not the system's corrections conflicting with your own corrections, as you do not feel the need to do any corrections yet.

I suspect the average driver doesn't have enough intentional experience driving up around where a stability control system will step in to know what he's supposed to do, let alone notice that the stability control could possibly be trying to do something different.

Most people only experience driving at that level when it's not planned in advance. And when some level of panic is involved, which gets in the way of everything from choosing what to do to realizing whether what they did do was really right or were they just "lucky things didn't turn out worse this time".


Norm

 

[CrowdControl_5.0]

+1 on performance/survival driver's training. There are a few schools out there that even have a skid car, which can induce traction loss at very low speeds. Skid cars can be very helpful in learning vehicle dynamics and recovery skills. Plus, you get to take traction to it's limits and beyond without wadding up your fancy Mustang!

 

[inspecto]

"My P-Zeros currently have over 36k on them - and I’ve driven on them daily 24/7/365 through all seasons. "

How do you do this ??? b I got 12,000 m on mine.

 

[Linkster1666]

I have found that my tires last one hell of a lot longer not driving like a 15 year old idiot.

Started in a stubble field @ 9 driving a old ford truck pulling the hay bail wagon. You can use the clutch or see, pick one.

 

[HoosierDaddy]

Where is novagt? I need to see his response to this thread. Someone find that man asap!

Or norm...I'll take norms opinion too

 

[HoosierDaddy]

I have found that my tires last one hell of a lot longer not driving like a 15 year old idiot.

Studies show age of the idiot have little effect on tire life.

Ask me how I know.

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