Will Trump take ANY blame for a tanked market?

[Docscurlock]

True for homeless who have no income, but not so simple for those who have insufficient income. They simply get strapped with a lifetime's worth of bills that they can't get out from under. Also ruins their chance for credit for anything else. Plenty of alternatives once we can get our bipolar political leaders to cooperate.

Its not a perfect system but beats being a corpse in the street. Or being given N Korean first aid.

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[Caballus]

I think you need to re-watch the video to understand it. It explains clearly why you need to wait, at least in the context of the UK. It is not about stopping the spread but managing the case load. It is not possible to stop the spread.

I understand the video but disagree with the premise. I believe it is absolutely possible to arrest the spread now. Again, I believe the gardener is basing his theory on a misplaced assumption that the infected will be immune from repeat infection.

 

[Docscurlock]

I think you need to re-watch the video to understand it. It explains clearly why you need to wait, at least in the context of the UK. It is not about stopping the spread but managing the case load. It is not possible to stop the spread.

So we slow down the infection of the old and infirm until all the beds are full, sounds like a good system to me.

 

[Caballus]

Its not a perfect system but beats being a corpse in the street. Or being given N Korean first aid.

I think we have to place the bar a bit higher than N.K. or corpses in the street. If that's our yardstick we're doomed to a far less than perfect system than what we're capable of achieving.

 

[Gregs24]

You said the young have a .02% fatality rate, that is 10k per 500,000. Lots of body bags. I personally would not be happy with that number.

It is 0.2% of diagnosed cases in those under 40 which is insignificant compared to those of much older people. Doesn't matter whether you like it or not, that is what will happen and this is about mitigating losses. If you overwhelm the medical services the death rate will rise, hence the reason you need to manage case numbers as is being attempted in the UK. It is all very unpalatable, but some tough calls ahead.

 

[Caballus]

It is 0.2% of diagnosed cases in those under 40 which is insignificant compared to those of much older people. Doesn't matter whether you like it or not, that is what will happen and this is about mitigating losses. If you overwhelm the medical services the death rate will rise, hence the reason you need to manage case numbers as is being attempted in the UK. It is all very unpalatable, but some tough calls ahead.

The insignificant youth you are speaking of sacrificing are generally not hospitalized when they contract COVID-19. So what burden is being lifted?

 

[Docscurlock]

It is 0.2% of diagnosed cases in those under 40 which is insignificant compared to those of much older people. Doesn't matter whether you like it or not, that is what will happen and this is about mitigating losses. If you overwhelm the medical services the death rate will rise, hence the reason you need to manage case numbers as is being attempted in the UK. It is all very unpalatable, but some tough calls ahead.

Quite unpalatable for me. I say, limit exposure and try and save as many as possible, Life is sacred.

 

[Docscurlock]

I think we have to place the bar a bit higher than N.K. or corpses in the street. If that's our yardstick we're doomed to a far less than perfect system than what we're capable of achieving.

I think it's quite a bit higher already. I am failing to see infirm poor people walking the streets with untreated disease. Illegal immigrants seem to think our system is much better than they have at home, although not a lot of immigrants from N Korea.

 

[Gregs24]

So we slow down the infection of the old and infirm until all the beds are full, sounds like a good system to me.

Exactly that. Manage the spread to get the peak when you can best cope. The US needs to get beds and respirators in place that just are not there at present, we are the same. The old and infirm are your problem because a LOT of them are going to get ill and die. The dead ones don't take up beds either, so it is the sick ones that you need to worry about and there will be millions of those in the US and you don't want them all at once. How many hospital beds do you have ? How many respirators ? not enough.

It goes back to the old wartime adage that a wounded enemy is better than a dead one, because it takes two people to look after a wounded soldier but the dead look after themselves.

I like that, makes it sound "free" depends on if you pay taxes or not.


Much like here, except for the "free" part if you pay for health insurance.

No, it is very different. Clearly the NHS has to be funded by government and hence taxes, but treatment is free and unlimited and unrelated to whether you pay tax or not and there is no requirement to have insurance. There are people who have never paid any tax that have received free NHS treatment.

 

[Caballus]

I think it's quite a bit higher already. I am failing to see infirm poor people walking the streets with untreated disease. Illegal immigrants seem to think our system is much better than they have at home, although not a lot of immigrants from N Korea.

Not into illegal immigrants getting free healthcare--that's another NK analogy. However, I think we conflate those that get free care with those who cannot afford to get care. Free care goes to those with no income. Unaffordable debt goes to those who cannot afford healthcare. They are charged, but can't pay. As a result, many opt not to seek health care. Political leaders fully recognize this issue, but disagree on how to solve it--as does the public.

 

[Gregs24]

Quite unpalatable for me. I say, limit exposure and try and save as many as possible, Life is sacred.

You are completely missing the point. It is MANAGING exposure to MANAGE the case load and hence load on the medical services. If you get that wrong you will be overwhelmed and the death rate will RISE because you can't cope. It will spread.

 

[Caballus]

You are completely missing the point. It is MANAGING exposure to MANAGE the case load and hence load on the medical services. If you get that wrong you will be overwhelmed and the death rate will RISE because you can't cope. It will spread.

I think the UK is missing the point that the medical services for the youth you are speaking of do not compete, by and large, with the services required for the elderly. Second, you are assuming that by exposing youth now, a global immunity will form. Even if the latter point were true, it would only be relevant if the UK remains isolated from the rest of the world that will surge back to normal in 8 weeks, according to the UK model.

 

[Gregs24]

I believe it is absolutely possible to arrest the spread now. .

Well good luck with that, as nobody has managed to stop the spread yet once established in the population - which it is now in the US. It will run it's course all you can do is modify the behaviour to maximise your chance of keeping people alive

 

[Caballus]

..nobody has managed to stop the spread yet ...

In the past 4 weeks that nations have paid attention, you mean?

 

[Docscurlock]

Not into illegal immigrants getting free healthcare--

But we both know it happens

Free care goes to those with no income. Unaffordable debt goes to those who cannot afford healthcare. They are charged, but can't pay. As a result, many opt not to seek health care. Political leaders fully recognize this issue, but disagree on how to solve it--as does the public.

There are ways around the problem but of course a corpse will carry no debt. There are ways for low income to get care/health ins/even bankruptcy to get rid of medical bills. Far from perfect but the percentage of people that don't carry insurance and aren't able to get help is fairly low. Obamacare was supposed to fix the problem but just changed the demographics of the uninsured. It is still a fact that no where in this country will a person be turned away from emergency medical care.

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