Who will swap for the new 7.3 V8!

[Maggneto]

This has to be of the most ignorant comments I've read on a forum.

Just because an engine is not designed for a vehicle does not mean that said engine can't make that vehicle faster. It's absurd what you're saying...really. The only "FACT" you have stated is that the 7.3 is not designed for the mustang. This has nothing to do with how the mustang can before with the 7.3 engine. It's mind boggling how you're trying to infer such...really.



Get back with me when Beltramo says the mustang will be slower in the 1/4 mile. All he is saying is the 7.3 is likely going to be a PITA to shoehorn into the coyote, and it's going to throw off the vehicle dynamics. You know what else throws off vehicle dynamics? A 75-100 lb blower or turbo kit that people bolt on to the coyote.

Again, when you have a fast shifting10 speed transmission, that low re-vving nature DOESN'T MATTER in the 1/4 mile.

No one here (myself included) has any facts to support weather a 7.3 swap would be advantageous or detrimental to the S550's 1/4 mile. There are no real weight specs, no horsepower specs, nothing. No conclusions can be made. There is however evidence that suggests the 7.3 can be competitive, by taking current OHV hp/l figures and applying them to the 7.3L. Likewise, weight can be inferred by current OHV engines. This evidence suggests the 7.3 can be competitive without modification in the 1/4 mile.

And the answer to this question "Do you know more than Joel Beltramo, manager for V-8 gas engines at Ford?" is No, you don't know more than Joe on the subject. Joe says the engine is too heavy and won't be a better option than the Coyote.

"And if you're wondering if it'll fit in a Mustang, Beltramo told us it's actually shorter in height and narrower than a Coyote V-8, but quite a bit longer thanks to much increased bore centers. It's possible then, but good luck doing so without having to cut into the firewall. And even if you could wedge this motor into a Mustang, it wouldn't be very good, because of its heavy cast iron block and low-revving nature. Stick with the Coyote, kids."

So get back to us when you order a 7.3 and start the engine swap sparky. We all await watching YouTube videos of the 7.3 Super Duty Cobra Mustang F250 Iron Block getting blown away by stock Ecoboost Mustangs at the drag strip.

And when the 7.3 experiment fails you can at least use your new 7.3 Super Duty Cobra Mustang F250 Iron Block to tow a real Mustang to the drag strip sparky.

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[millhouse]

Let's put this iron block weight people keep on bitching about into perspective for a second.

Look at the Triton V10's weight. This too has an iron block. It's a SOHC configuration, has all of the extra pistons, rods, valves etc. that an extra 2 cylinders require. The listed dry weight is ~ 620lbs. http://www.f150hub.com/specs/6.8-triton-v-10.html , https://www.roushcleantech.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/files/6.8engine.pdf

I think most reasonable people can agree that this 7.3L engine is going to be quite a bit lighter than that monster. How much, none of us can be really sure....but that engine is only 180lbs heavier than the coyote http://www.mustangandfords.com/how-...ference-between-a-5-0l-and-aluminator-coyote/.

Something to consider...a whipple supercharger adds > 100lbs over the nose of the coyote https://www.mustang6g.com/forums/threads/how-much-weight-does-a-whipple-add-to-the-car.96945/ Unlike this 7.3 engine however, it adds it waaaay up high, negatively impacting the CG. Guess how many complaints you hear about handling from whipple owners?

 

[BmacIL]

You know what else throws off vehicle dynamics? A 75-100 lb blower or turbo kit that people bolt on to the coyote.

Very, very few of the people who put those on are focused on handling. Do they want it to still feel pretty good? Yeah, but the numbers who are taking them to a road course often or autocross regularly are so small it barely counts. They almost always are prioritizing straight line performance and are ok with the worse handling.

It's one reason why I'm still puzzled they went the direction they did with the GT500, as the mass of the supercharger, and all the coolers for the supercharged powertrain require monstrous, heavy brakes capable of severe road course duty that make the whole car a pig. Weight hasn't been released yet, and it will be very fast, but kind of in spite of itself.

 

[millhouse]

Very, very few of the people who put those on are focused on handling. Do they want it to still feel pretty good? Yeah, but the numbers who are taking them to a road course often or autocross regularly are so small it barely counts. They almost always are prioritizing straight line performance and are ok with the worse handling.

It's one reason why I'm still puzzled they went the direction they did with the GT500, as the mass of the supercharger, and all the coolers for the supercharged powertrain require monstrous, heavy brakes capable of severe road course duty that make the whole car a pig. Weight hasn't been released yet, and it will be very fast, but kind of in spite of itself.

Honestly, I think a majority of V8 S550 owners care more about 0-60 and 1/4 mile times than the do handling. This is the sole reason a 7.3L swap is going to happen (more than once) in a S550. Granted it's not for everyone, but it has its place.

As for the GT500, you're absolutely right. The GT350 has been proven to be damn near as capable on a track as the (much more powerful) ZL1. The problem is, that's not enough for the strait line freaks. The GT350 will likely still be a more capable handler than the GT500, but the GT500 is going to be able to brute force it'self around the track...and is going to be an absolute straight line monster with it's dual clutch transmission.

 

[BmacIL]

Honestly, I think a majority of V8 S550 owners care more about 0-60 and 1/4 mile times than the do handling. This is the sole reason a 7.3L swap is going to happen (more than once) in a S550. Granted it's not for everyone, but it has its place.

As for the GT500, you're absolutely right. The GT350 has been proven to be damn near as capable on a track as the (much more powerful) ZL1. The problem is, that's not enough for the strait line freaks. The GT350 will likely still be a more capable handler than the GT500, but the GT500 is going to be able to brute force it'self around the track...and is going to be an absolute straight line monster with it's dual clutch transmission.

You're right, but the weight gain of a 7.3 has to be offset by the engine performance. Based on the indicitive information I do have, it'd need some work to have enough higher performance over a stock Coyote. The cost and mods required to make it fit, run AND perform better just don't make sense. But you're right, someone will do it. You can do a fully built and blown 5.0L for less that makes a lot more power and torque.

 

[millhouse]

You're right, but the weight gain of a 7.3 has to be offset by the engine performance. Based on the indicitive information I do have, it'd need some work to have enough higher performance over a stock Coyote. The cost and mods required to make it fit, run AND perform better just don't make sense. But you're right, someone will do it. You can do a fully built and blown 5.0L for less that makes a lot more power and torque.

Honestly, I think it's going to be damn close in HP but offer vastly more torque (based on competitors OHV hp/l engines). The extra torque is going to make it a monster off the line, which could offset any horsepower deficiencies. Granted, you're going to need some sticky tires to take advantage of it.

Cost is obviously a big unknown. The coyote engine is expensive AF, both new and from the junkyard. If they put these 7.3 engines in enough vehicles, it could be a viable swap.

I agree though, it's not going to be any bit economical to take a perfectly good coyote out and put this in it's place. From my perspective, this is only going to be a swap worthy of a salvage or body in white vehicle.

 

[Maggneto]

Let's put this iron block weight people keep on bitching about into perspective for a second.

Look at the Triton V10's weight. This too has an iron block. It's a SOHC configuration, has all of the extra pistons, rods, valves etc. that an extra 2 cylinders require. The listed dry weight is ~ 620lbs. http://www.f150hub.com/specs/6.8-triton-v-10.html , https://www.roushcleantech.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/files/6.8engine.pdf

I think most reasonable people can agree that this 7.3L engine is going to be quite a bit lighter than that monster. How much, none of us can be really sure....but that engine is only 180lbs heavier than the coyote http://www.mustangandfords.com/how-...ference-between-a-5-0l-and-aluminator-coyote/.

Something to consider...a whipple supercharger adds > 100lbs over the nose of the coyote https://www.mustang6g.com/forums/threads/how-much-weight-does-a-whipple-add-to-the-car.96945/ Unlike this 7.3 engine however, it adds it waaaay up high, negatively impacting the CG. Guess how many complaints you hear about handling from whipple owners?

Actually, most reasonable people see the 7.3 engine swap as a very bad idea because it's an iron block truck engine designed to tow heavy loads not drag race. The engine weight is a concern as is the placement of the engine. The list of things that need to be updated like suspension, brakes, engine compartment, etc goes on and on.

The end result will be a Mustang that is slower and handles worst than when you started.

But don't Joe's advice, what does the head of gas engines at Ford know about gas engines?

Get that 7.3 ordered and get to work.

 

[bootlegger]

Safe is relative. A 700whp coyote is NOT going to last 200k miles. N/A is far more reliable both short and long term.

I don't know many racers who are expecting to get 200k out of their engine. Even this 7.3, when souped up for 600whp, is not going to last 200k miles. I promise you this, as a development guy who receives parts back from various endurance tests. There are plenty of S/C guys on here running over 700 to the wheels for tens of thousands of miles. If I had a 700+whp car seeing regular track days, I would be happy to get 50-60k out of the engine. Pay to play.

The 7.3 has a forged crankcase and is going to be stout as hell in stock form. Every article is touting how durable this engine is going to be. A 427 has none of the new technology this engine carries and has a weaker block. It has small block bore diameter and spacing, meaning worse cooling and far smaller valves.

Durable for towing is different than durable under 10lbs of boost. And yes, you will need to boost this engine to really compete against the faster S550s. Starting with forged pistons/rods is key.

This is a OHV engine, it takes a single cam, not "cams".

Yes, I know how pushrod engines work. Can we not get into the petty action of calling out typos?

Let's not forget either, blowers aren't exactly cheap...and they add a good amount of weight over the front end.

The cheaper kits are around $7k for over 200 more hp. This 7.3, with all the parts you need to make it run, will be over $20k new. Even if you find one in a junk yard, it will likely run you $10k (and you will have a questionable engine to start).
+90lbs for +250hp and +100lb-ft versus +100lbs or more for -20hp and +80lb-ft. It isn't hard to see who will win the cost analysis, just like it isn't hard to see who will win the race.
Turbo kits weigh even less, and give loads of power.

Again, I am not saying someone shouldn't use this engine, or that it can't be used for racing. I am just saying it will never be the best, cheapest, or easiest option for hardcore racers. When/if it is swapped in an S550, it will be done for bragging rights and to show off modding skills. Kudos to the person who does all that work. Personally, I wouldn't invest the time into a brand new engine that hasn't had proven its reliability.

 

[bootlegger]

Probably because they are populated by engineers. But there is creativity in the sciences. Just where did the term “eureka” come from:

Actually, the auto industry is ruled by book keepers and finance people.

 

[tokuzumi]

Honestly, I think it's going to be damn close in HP but offer vastly more torque (based on competitors OHV hp/l engines). The extra torque is going to make it a monster off the line, which could offset any horsepower deficiencies. Granted, you're going to need some sticky tires to take advantage of it.

Cost is obviously a big unknown. The coyote engine is expensive AF, both new and from the junkyard. If they put these 7.3 engines in enough vehicles, it could be a viable swap.

I agree though, it's not going to be any bit economical to take a perfectly good coyote out and put this in it's place. From my perspective, this is only going to be a swap worthy of a salvage or body in white vehicle.

The HP peak would be much lower in the RPM band, which would mean the transmission would be doing a lot of shifting. I think this would actually hurt performance. Some of this could be addressed by a taller rear axle gear, but I would think the first 2 gears of the 10 speed would be mostly useless, especially if you have to shift somewhere between 4500-5000 rpm.

 

[Big Boss]

How would it suck for drag racing when it's likely going to have 440hp ish and over 500 lb ft of torque? If that's the case, then the coyote also must suck for drag racing, as it has marginally more hp but a shit ton less torque.

And why do you seem to think you need to turn high RPM to be successful at drag racing? 5000 RPM would be absolutely adequate if paired behind a 10 speed transmission that allowed the engine to stay right in the meat of the powerband.
.

While I agree the A10 does its best to keep it in the heart of the power band, in a 1/4 mile blast at WOT I can't see the A10 keeping the 7.3 between 2K and 5K. Everything about this engine we know is that it's going to be offered as a viable option to a diesel so I wouldn't be shocked to see it have its peak numbers low in the power curve. That's why I think it will not be suited well for drag racing, where in the power curve its making those numbers I don't think will translate well when its running WOT. Will the A10 be able to keep it that low in the power band at WOT?

Is the 80 Lb/Ft advantage and 20 less hp going to be enough to overcome the possible 100-150 pounds weight added?

Now change the cam up, change the tuning and yeah this could definitely be a performer but we are talking about the enigne that will find itself designed for use in a F-250 and plopping directly in a Mustang without changing anything. I think the Coyote would still have the advantage

 

[millhouse]

Actually, most reasonable people see the 7.3 engine swap as a very bad idea because it's an iron block truck engine designed to tow heavy loads not drag race. The engine weight is a concern as is the placement of the engine. The list of things that need to be updated like suspension, brakes, engine compartment, etc goes on and on.

The end result will be a Mustang that is slower and handles worst than when you started.

But don't Joe's advice, what does the head of gas engines at Ford know about gas engines?

Get that 7.3 ordered and get to work.

You keep on saying "BUT IRON BLOCK!" and "BUT TRUCK ENGINE" yet fail to offer any evidence why you think the 7.3 will be slower in a straight line. I'm still waiting on this. I love the rhetoric, but so far...it's been entirely one sided. Specifically, what evidence do you offer that the engine weight and placement is going to be a big enough detriment to offset the extra torque the engine offers?

As for the weight placement of the engine, do you not understand that OHV engines offer a far lower CG than OHC engines? It's not coincidence that the camaro handles as well as it does.

As for Joe, he's right...the coyote is a better fit for all around performance in an S550, hands down. That does not mean the 7.3L couldn't be quicker in a straight line.

I don't know many racers who are expecting to get 200k out of their engine. Even this 7.3, when souped up for 600whp, is not going to last 200k miles. I promise you this, as a development guy who receives parts back from various endurance tests. There are plenty of S/C guys on here running over 700 to the wheels for tens of thousands of miles. If I had a 700+whp car seeing regular track days, I would be happy to get 50-60k out of the engine. Pay to play.

Ford has said time and again this 7.3 engine was engineered to be easy to work on and to last a long...long time....for heavy duty applications. Throwing this in a lightweight mustang means this engine is going to be completely overbuilt for the loads it will see. It's going to be able to handle far more HP in stock form than the coyote could dream of. For longevity, a 700rwhp 7.3 is going to last much, much longer than a 700rwhp coyote.

Durable for towing is different than durable under 10lbs of boost. And yes, you will need to boost this engine to really compete against the faster S550s. Starting with forged pistons/rods is key.

Yes, I know how pushrod engines work. Can we not get into the petty action of calling out typos?

Good to hear, believe it or not...not everyone does. There was no way for me to know it was a typo.

The cheaper kits are around $7k for over 200 more hp. This 7.3, with all the parts you need to make it run, will be over $20k new. Even if you find one in a junk yard, it will likely run you $10k (and you will have a questionable engine to start).
+90lbs for +250hp and +100lb-ft versus +100lbs or more for -20hp and +80lb-ft. It isn't hard to see who will win the cost analysis, just like it isn't hard to see who will win the race.
Turbo kits weigh even less, and give loads of power.

Again, I am not saying someone shouldn't use this engine, or that it can't be used for racing. I am just saying it will never be the best, cheapest, or easiest option for hardcore racers. When/if it is swapped in an S550, it will be done for bragging rights and to show off modding skills. Kudos to the person who does all that work. Personally, I wouldn't invest the time into a brand new engine that hasn't had proven its reliability.

This 7.3 is going to be placed in a shitload of heavy duty fleet vehicles and will be economically priced within 5 years. You're going to see this the swap of choice for many, many hot rods in the near future.

Once again, go back and re-read my posts. I'm not disagreeing with you on some of your points. It's not going to be economical to remove a coyote and replace it with the 7.3L engine. The real benefits of this engine are going to be those that are starting from scratch with their power-train. New and used coyotes cost a damn fortune. Why don't you talk to this guy about used coyote costs...

 

[millhouse]

The HP peak would be much lower in the RPM band, which would mean the transmission would be doing a lot of shifting. I think this would actually hurt performance. Some of this could be addressed by a taller rear axle gear, but I would think the first 2 gears of the 10 speed would be mostly useless, especially if you have to shift somewhere between 4500-5000 rpm.

You mean the fastest shifting 10 speed transmission that single handedly vaulted the 2018 mustang into first place in the N/A pony car 1/4 mile? It's already been proven that the extra shifts are going to make the vehicle faster, not slower.

 

[millhouse]

While I agree the A10 does its best to keep it in the heart of the power band, in a 1/4 mile blast at WOT I can't see the A10 keeping the 7.3 between 2K and 5K. Everything about this engine we know is that it's going to be offered as a viable option to a diesel so I wouldn't be shocked to see it have its peak numbers low in the power curve. Will the A10 be able to keep it that low in the power band at WOT?

Is the 80 Lb/Ft advantage and 20 less hp going to be enough to overcome the possible 100-150 pounds weight added?

The A10 is going to be more than adequate for maintaining peak HP. It does an amazing job with the coyote.

As for the extra torque vs slightly less HP, that's a great questions. It would undoubtedly be able to pull an amazing 60' compared to the coyote. 150 lbs is about .15 to .2 in the 1/4 mile. We also know that every .1 reduction in 60' is worth .2 in the 1/4 mile. My best guess is it would be damn close. The 7.3 is going to get out of the hole faster and the coyote will have a higher top end charge.

 

[bootlegger]

Good to hear, believe it or not...not everyone does. There was no way for me to know it was a typo.

I have stated many times that I work in development. I helped develop 2 brand new industrial diesel engines, and have supported fuel system development of several diesel trucks/cars.

I don't think this engine swap will be so popular, unless Ford Performance or another engine builder makes a crate version. An LS swap is much easier, as there is so much support already out there.

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