Is 500whp possible with only bolt ons

[Sasuketr]

No because combustion occurs with valves closed so why on earth would you ever add intake/exhaust channels CC to combustion chamber?

Why no lighter rods/pistons? Cuz this would require stripping the engine down not to mention of "internal balancing"...

Not the headers, i thought ported parts are the piston heads and the housing around the valves inside the combustion chamber. If you are going that far, you can actually change the balancer, crank shaft, and the piston rods! I ve never thought about porting the exhaust openings!

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[16MustangVet]

Sayyy what? you dont port the pistons....

Both intake and exhaust runners and combustion chambers are ported and polished.

http://www.mustang6g.com/forums/showthread.php?t=75528

6 pages of head porting for those that dont get it.

 

[pinero61]

I'm leaning to shitty results.

With NSR cams, I agree. You're not going to see much of a gain unless you go balls out.

 

[veeefour]

Not the headers, i thought ported parts are the piston heads and the housing around the valves inside the combustion chamber. If you are going that far, you can actually change the balancer, crank shaft, and the piston rods! I ve never thought about porting the exhaust openings!

You wrote:

"Wouldn't porting the heads increase the volume of the combustion chamber"

Porting process has nothing to do with combustion chambers since they are not machined - they might be machined but this is rather not the part of the deal.
If you go with the bigger valves the piston recesses might be machined as well but again this has nothing to do with head porting service.

Balancer? There's no balancer in a Coyote engine...:eyebulge:

 

[pinero61]

There can be slight CR loss when the bowls are reworked, but anything lost would be gained back when the head is decked.

Highest ratio shelf stock piston I've found is 12.5:1 from JE. I plan on running these when I do my full build.

 

[veeefour]

There can be slight CR loss when the bowls are reworked, but anything lost would be gained back when the head is decked.

Highest ratio shelf stock piston I've found is 12.5:1 from JE. I plan on running these when I do my full build.

If you want to stay with stock rotating assembly than there's no need for machining the "bowls" - if you want new rods and pistons than hey ho, why not

For now I shall stick with bolt on's only. Keep in mind that S550 heads supposedly flow even better than Boss heads. Honestly whole 2015 motor is almost the same as Boss...

 

[pinero61]

If you want to stay with stock rotating assembly than there's no need for machining the "bowls" - if you want new rods and pistons than hey ho, why not

For now I shall stick with bolt on's only. Keep in mind that S550 heads supposedly flow even better than Boss heads. Honestly whole 2015 motor is almost the same as Boss...

For what this car makes still on untouched heads, they do flow very well. I doubt they'd out flow the boss heads, but probably aren't very far off. Ford did a very good job on these engines, with the exception of the OPG's.

 

[veeefour]

For what this car makes still on untouched heads, they do flow very well. I doubt they'd out flow the boss heads, but probably aren't very far off. Ford did a very good job on these engines, with the exception of the OPG's.

https://performanceparts.ford.com/download/PDFS/FPP_Gen_2_Coyote_Technical_Reference_2-16.pdf

According to this S550's Coyote valve-train:
-37,3mm and 13mm lift for intake
-31,8mm and 13mm lift for exhaust

Boss 302 valve-train:
-37mm and 12mm lift for intake
-31,8mm and 13mm lift for exhaust

I've seen some flow results where S550 heads provided results as good as Boss heads or even slightly better - still being CAST not machined.

Now, stage 3 Comp cams for S550 can add some lift but not much:
-13,1 intake
-13,05 exhauts


That is why you wont get massive gains from cams in Coyote anymore - Ford already packed almost max. lift possible. Comp cams will help for sure at high rpm because they provide a longer duration but I'm afraid gains at low end/torque will be small if not minimal. If you already have GT350 intake/TB with a good set of long tubes I would estimate it to be around 20-30 HP more with comp cams - around 500 HP to the wheel tops.

Most workshops still advertise the specs for S197 heads while S550 heads are completely different either with valve-train or runner geometry.
If you really want to squeeze more juice form this engine you need Voodoo heads to begin with.

Hence my next update would be:
-Comp Cams stage 3
-MMR billet OPG
-MMR billet CS
-ARP fasteners

With those mods I can spin this motor to 8k rpm all the day long.
500RWHP is my goal.

 

[pinero61]

With those mods, springs, VCT deletes, and MMR s2 (comp grinds) I'm spinning mine out to 9k. That's why i skipped over the NSR cams completely, wasn't worth the money or effort involved for small gains.

The redeeming factor of NSR's is the retention of full phaser use. This will help reduce the torque loss associated with going to higher rpm cams.

 

[veeefour]

I'm still not entirely sold to Comp Cams - they require no mods to the heads and retains the VCT - I use mine as DD so drive-ability is the key for me.
I'm afraid that it may not be so sweet with blocked VCT anymore.

 

[16MustangVet]

https://performanceparts.ford.com/download/PDFS/FPP_Gen_2_Coyote_Technical_Reference_2-16.pdf

According to this S550's Coyote valve-train:
-37,3mm and 13mm lift for intake
-31,8mm and 13mm lift for exhaust

Boss 302 valve-train:
-37mm and 12mm lift for intake
-31,8mm and 13mm lift for exhaust

I've seen some flow results where S550 heads provided results as good as Boss heads or even slightly better - still being CAST not machined.

Now, stage 3 Comp cams for S550 can add some lift but not much:
-13,1 intake
-13,05 exhauts


That is why you wont get massive gains from cams in Coyote anymore - Ford already packed almost max. lift possible. Comp cams will help for sure at high rpm because they provide a longer duration but I'm afraid gains at low end/torque will be small if not minimal. If you already have GT350 intake/TB with a good set of long tubes I would estimate it to be around 20-30 HP more with comp cams - around 500 HP to the wheel tops.

Most workshops still advertise the specs for S197 heads while S550 heads are completely different either with valve-train or runner geometry.
If you really want to squeeze more juice form this engine you need Voodoo heads to begin with.

Hence my next update would be:
-Comp Cams stage 3
-MMR billet OPG
-MMR billet CS
-ARP fasteners

With those mods I can spin this motor to 8k rpm all the day long.
500RWHP is my goal.

You CAN still get quite a bit of gains from porting coyote heads. What is not very well proven is what cams work. Which is part of the reason i believe not many people do them. Also the vct with intake and exhaust cam phasing is damn good on these engines. I believe tuners still havnt figure out how to maximize the intake amd exhaust phasing for max gains.

here are a few articles on ported heads. this guy is a vendor here on this site now amd does some amazing work and short turn around.

http://www.mustang6g.com/forums/showthread.php?t=73894

http://www.mustang6g.com/forums/showthread.php?t=75528

these were not voodoo heads little mixed up from the customer he did these heads for anways the work looks great.

ill keep posting this article because just how much the vct is worth blows my mind.

http://www.stangtv.com/news/how-much-power-does-coyote-vct-account-for-aem-answers-the-question/

The testing conducted by AEM proves how vital the VCT system is. With no VCT, the Coyote engine peaks out at 6,500 RPM making 423.1 hp. With the intake only VCT, the engine only picks up 5.8 peak horsepower jumping to 428.9 hp at the same 6,500 RPM. With the exhaust VCT also activated, the engine puts out 465.4 hp at 6,500 RPM. This is where carefully studying the dyno information is valuable. A total gain at peak RPM of 42.3 hp might not sound like its worth the trouble of the VCT, but closer inspection shows a much bigger story. At 3,900 RPM the engine is making 109.3 hp more with the VCT activated than it was without.

The story is very similar, and perhaps even more dramatic in terms of torque. With no VCT the engine made 368.6 lb-ft at 5,400 RPM. With the intake VCT active, that torque jumps to a peak of 412.2 lb-ft, and the peak drops down to 4,400 RPM, torque stays above 400 lb-ft until nearly 5,400 RPM. Activating the VCT on the exhaust cam shows another substantial spike in peak torque output, taking total peak torque to 454.4 lb-ft at 4,400 RPM. That’s a gain of 85.8 lb-ft, at peak.

Once again with torque, the graph proves out how valuable the VCT is for torque as well. Take a look at the torque graph at 3,700 RPM. At that point we can see that with VCT, the Coyote engine is making another 149.9 lb-ft than without. Even at the horsepower peak of 6,500 RPM, torque with VCT active is still outrunning torque with it deactivated, with the engine making over 375 lb-ft at 6,500 RPM. The non VCT setup never outmatches the VCT activated setup for torque or horsepower, especially below peak where it matters the most.

Those gains are just manipulating the vct. the technology in this engine and the ability to advance and retard intake and exhaust phasing independently is pretty incredible.

 

[pinero61]

I'm still not entirely sold to Comp Cams - they require no mods to the heads and retains the VCT - I use mine as DD so drive-ability is the key for me.
I'm afraid that it may not be so sweet with blocked VCT anymore.

It's not bad, even with big cams this engine is well mannered. Drives like stock with 4.11's.

 

[pinero61]

That was stock locked cams versus stock vct enable, correct?

 

[veeefour]

I'm definitely going to keep the VCT working.

Spoke with Lund some time ago and he said he can pretty much tune the stage 3 cams to the stock drive-ability level - something close to 500 is achievable.

 

[16MustangVet]

That was stock locked cams versus stock vct enable, correct?

Yes that was a stock coyote.

A person really needs to look at the dyno charts to understand the gains the vct produces. Its not just about peak numbers. As the article states.

"total gain at peak RPM of 42.3 hp might not sound like its worth the trouble of the VCT, but closer inspection shows a much bigger story. At 3,900 RPM the engine is making 109.3 hp more with the VCT activated than it was without."

The 109 hp under the curve or under peak is gigantic imo. racing someone for example with vct disabled would be a 109 hp handi cap vs the engine setup using vct.

the gains of 109 hp at 3900 rpm would leave the non vct setup in the dust and never look back.

tq gains under peak are impressive too. i urge people to read that article and for the love of god dont lock out your cams if doing aftermarket ones.

A good tuner should be able to keep the cam "sweep" from advance to retard narrow enough to keep it within limits so it woudnt interfere with even the older coyote engine that do NOT have the deeper valve reliefs cut in the pistons.

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