Power without a tune?

[Busser48]

I have a similar combo with no tune:

CPE Intercooler
Catless downpipe
Green drop in filter

The gains are minimal, but car does runs faster than stock. I feel the intercooler did nothing for a power increase, but the downpipe definitely added increased top end. I travel a lot and from time to time I get a mustang ecoboost rental car, and comparing a stock car to mine - mine is definitely faster. Now with a tune, the gains would be on a whole different level, but I am going to do exhaust, catch can then tune. I too am worried about the warranty stuff. Ford definitely has some issues, and I don't want them to try and blame a tune for a blown motor.

Nick

You won't get any added power with bolt ons, because of the stock pcm. You need a tune, to technically make a difference with these turbo cars. What u did is more for sound and safety, which is great.

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[Busser48]

From my experience there is nothing to gain at all with bolt on parts. The ECU is constantly monitoring and limiting the boost at all times with the stock parts so with freer flowing intake and exhaust, the ECU just will limit it more, There COULD possible be a very small gain in the amount of time before the ECU starts to limit boost. I have tried an intercooler, catted downpipe, cat back Magnaflow and MAP CAI. Now that I have converted it all back to stock it feels certainly smoother and also faster. The best 0-60 I got on the modified EB was 5.8. I now get consistent 5.5. Not a lot better and maybe I am better at doing the 0-60 but it does show no improvement.
The ECU is already limiting the power significantly on all the stock parts which is evident since just an ECU tune make incredible gains.
Also I did keep the intercooler on because heat will be a significant killer of HP.

Did u have a tune? Because you are correct about bolt ons not doing really anything. If you have s tune, then the ecu can be changed to accommodate the parts. Especially with a fmic and DP. Also wastegate is an amazing bolt on, prob dollar for dollar, one of the best besides tune

 

[jbailer]

All of these claims of no additional power with bolt-ons and no tunes are incorrect.

For one, adding a higher flow air filter allows more air to be used, the pcm will auto adjust for the increased air, add the appropriate amount of fuel for increased power.

Also, adding a larger more efficient intercooler will increase power by increased timing. Because the charge air temperature is managed better (kept lower), the ecu doesn't have to retard the timing which would reduce power.

This is all done with the factory tune.

 

[tw557]

I feel very confident that with a turbo car like ours the engine will not be allowed to make any more power no matter how free flowing you make either end. With Non turbo charged cars this is all very possible to gain some by making it as easy as possible to fill the cylinders. This is not the case with a turbo. The turbo is spooled up with more then enough boost pressure at any given time and the wastegate and BOV are pretty much constantly open and limiting the boost to the exact amount the PCM wants. The PCM says the motor is only going to get say 20lbs of boost at 4000 rpm at full throttle and no matter how free flowing you make the intake or exhaust thats all it will provide. The proof is all you need to do is trick a boost sensor with a Boostmax or get a professional tune and bam, just like that you now have 24lbs boost. So the hardware is limited by the PCM.
But no question the intercooler will help with consistency and at least allow the PCM to keep the timing to the amount it is planning to apply. I doubt by putting an intercooler on that the PCM will add any more timing then it was planning to it just won't retard it.

 

[tw557]

Did u have a tune? Because you are correct about bolt ons not doing really anything. If you have s tune, then the ecu can be changed to accommodate the parts. Especially with a fmic and DP. Also wastegate is an amazing bolt on, prob dollar for dollar, one of the best besides tune

I bought the car Certified Pre Owned with all the performance parts on. Yes hard to believe. They confirmed for me they did a ECU reflash and was assured there is no tune in the car now. I am quite sure it did at one time though with this many parts added especially the intercooler. I didn't like all the noise, droning, hissing so I got all stock parts back on except for the intercooler. I don't want to jeopardize the warranty so that also is why I put back to stock. I so want a tune but but can't throw the warranty out the window just yet.

 

[TheLion]

I bought the car Certified Pre Owned with all the performance parts on. Yes hard to believe. They confirmed for me they did a ECU reflash and was assured there is no tune in the car now. I am quite sure it did at one time though with this many parts added especially the intercooler. I didn't like all the noise, droning, hissing so I got all stock parts back on except for the intercooler. I don't want to jeopardize the warranty so that also is why I put back to stock. I so want a tune but but can't throw the warranty out the window just yet.

You do know Ford Racing tune SHOULD be out soon...of course that's what they said in 2015, then at the beginning of 2016 and then in August...but IF it ever actually does come out then you can still have a Ford Racing warranty of 36k miles with their software with all the added power. Time will tell how their compares to other high end software developers such as Tune+, LMS etc.

 

[TheLion]

All of these claims of no additional power with bolt-ons and no tunes are incorrect.

For one, adding a higher flow air filter allows more air to be used, the pcm will auto adjust for the increased air, add the appropriate amount of fuel for increased power.

Also, adding a larger more efficient intercooler will increase power by increased timing. Because the charge air temperature is managed better (kept lower), the ecu doesn't have to retard the timing which would reduce power.

This is all done with the factory tune.

I second second this. Here's the thing, any engine is dependent on it's support systems to function. If those support systems function inadequately, then engine performance suffers. Take out your IAT2 sensor and we'll see how well the car runs...

The inter cooler's purpose to cool down the pressurized air coming out of the turbo compressor outlet, obviously turbo's run hot and transfer thermal energy as they compress the air. Hot air is less ideal for making good power, for one it's lower density so there's fewer oxygen molecules available for combustion, second it has less cooling effect on the combustion chamber so hot spots get hotter, all of this increases risk of pre-ignition forcing a less aggressive timing, thus spark is generated at a higher crank angle and there is a shorter time the cylinder is under peak pressure = less torque. HP is a ratio of torque and RPM, less torque = less HP at any RPM...you get the picture.

The factory IC (I use it as an example because it's just so sucky I can't help it!) efficiency drops to the 40 and 30 percentile after just a single WOT pull through one gear, go WOT for another gear and your down to a bottom of 25%....charge air temps hover anywhere around 185F to over 230F in 80F ambients when the IC efficiency drops that low...not good for making power and your certainly not going to get all 310 horse's out of that little chunk of aluminum you call an engine. I think some one left some those poor horse's at the glue factory.

Now run that same IC in cooler weather, say 50F or 60F and it's efficiency is up drastically, you may get 3 or 4 pulls before it saturates due to the higher ambient air density which helps compensate for it's improper sizing and poor transfer characteristics. This is all well documented by multiple sources, when I say documented I mean instrumented testing with recorded actual results, some very thorough information. Additionally higher efficiency IC's have a lower pressure drop than the factory IC, so again your loosing less energy, pressurized air takes energy to pressurize, lower pressure losses = higher efficiency = same power with less fuel or if the ecu can compensate more power with the same fuel.

Are we arguing here that air temperature some how doesn't matter on a forced induction engine? If that's the case, why use an inter cooler at all...after all it just adds weight and cost :doh:

Now there is merit to the statement that certain parts don't have much effect while others do. The factory air box is well tuned for the flow rates of this engine, in fact according to Adam's testing (the famous Tune+ tuner) everybody raves about, the stock air box with a drop in green filter out flows most of the aftermarket CAI's...throw in a BIG MOUTH ram air duct from velossa tech and you have a high efficiency intake filtration and ducting system for about $300 and some elbow grease.

The IC isn't going to give you significantly more power (well if your comparing it to the saturated conditions then it will give you a lot more power), it's going to allow your engine to MAKE it's RATED power under ALL perceivable conditions, not just when it's 10% humidity, 65F and sunny...I argued against the down pipe on a stock car because there are many that are not compatible with the stock PCM software's parameters and will throw engine codes and most certainly will void the warranty.

Certain PCM variables have a wide range, so they can compensate for changes quite easily while others are highly specific and narrow. Most of the aftermarket down pipes do not play well with the stock PCM (ECU whatever you want to call it), that darn computer thingy! If you find one that's factory ECU compatible let me know, I've seen one that stated it was, but most say you NEED a custom PCM software (aka those tunes yall keep singin' about) in order to use their down pipe. Certainly any that are stock ECU compatible would have to be catted otherwise your loosing too much back pressure and the turbo will over boost like mad without a re-calibration of the PCM.

 

[jbailer]

But no question the intercooler will help with consistency and at least allow the PCM to keep the timing to the amount it is planning to apply. I doubt by putting an intercooler on that the PCM will add any more timing then it was planning to it just won't retard it.

This statement is confusing. It sounds like you understand that a more efficient intercooler will help control temps but I'm not sure you understand how the ecu works and the resulting power. Nobody is saying a better FMIC will increase power OVER what "it was planning to". The "plan" is a table. The higher the temperature on that table, the more the ecu will retard the timing to protect the engine. The more it retards timing, the less power you get. We have many actual data logged examples showing how out of control the temperatures get during a simple WOT pull with the factory FMIC. Therefore, the temperature is lower with a more efficient FMIC. Meaning timing is not retarded from the excessive heat, giving more power.

 

[tw557]

This statement is confusing. It sounds like you understand that a more efficient intercooler will help control temps but I'm not sure you understand how the ecu works and the resulting power. Nobody is saying a better FMIC will increase power OVER what "it was planning to". The "plan" is a table. The higher the temperature on that table, the more the ecu will retard the timing to protect the engine. The more it retards timing, the less power you get. We have many actual data logged examples showing how out of control the temperatures get during a simple WOT pull with the factory FMIC. Therefore, the temperature is lower with a more efficient FMIC. Meaning timing is not retarded from the excessive heat, giving more power.[/QUOTE

Sorry for the confusion. Heat is definitely the enemy. The cooler you can keep the charge the better. But I assume the timing for our motors is programmed to be a certain amount at any given condition. BUT if the PCM doesn't like what it sees it will retard the timing. I assume it will not just continue to add more and more timing the colder and colder the intake gets until it knocks. But even without timing advance, the cooler the intake charge will always be better especially like Lion said with that hot turbo compressing the air.

 

[tw557]

You do know Ford Racing tune SHOULD be out soon...of course that's what they said in 2015, then at the beginning of 2016 and then in August...but IF it ever actually does come out then you can still have a Ford Racing warranty of 36k miles with their software with all the added power. Time will tell how their compares to other high end software developers such as Tune+, LMS etc.

The ford tune would be exactly what I would be happy with but I am at 25000 miles already.

 

[Fast64ranchero]

If you're not going to tune it, do a Intercooler and cat back exh. If you want to hear the turbo do a CAI. No need to waste money on the other stuff.

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