Your thoughts on IRS

[blitzburgh]

peace out boy scout, I got a new phrase from the internet tough guy.

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[MikeHTally]

Any chance of cutting anything taller than 3.55?

Stock 3.31

 

[edco]

I was reading a book on Ford Mustang the other day. Little known fact was that it initially had a IRS option available which was discontinued due to low demand

When Hau Thai Tang designed the S197, IRS was in the platform. He went on the road to visit Mustang Clubs of America to preview the S197 and get feedback. The response was against the IRS. Everybody wanted to keep the 8.8" SRA. MCA members felt the SRA was part of the identity of the model. Tang went back to Dearborn and redesigned the chassis for the 8.8". The rest is history. The S550 was a response to Camaro and the rapidly changing muscle car segment. S550 is a winner. That said, S197 was a throwback motif and I think Tang got it right. It was 2003. If you loved Mustangs, you loved 8.8" or 9.0" SRA. As others pointed out, Ford did more than repeat the SRA in the S197 they maximized it. 2015 to 2021 is a different day, different design objective. The S197 was Mustang DNA in an update package. My first Mustang was a 1970 Mach One Sport Roof, 351 Clev 4V, Shaker. By 2004 I was long done with Mustang. Took one look at the S197. F-that. I am a buyer, solid axle and all.

Summer 2009 gen5 camaro stormed the market and overtook mustang in sales. Gen 5 camaro was IRS and Chevy boasted it made the mustang look primitive. Duh, the S197 was designed to be throw back. I am probably alone here, but when I looked at the gen5 camaro I thought Chevy missed an opportunity. If G5 Camaro, with the 6.2L OHV, had a Dana/GM 10 bolt SRA it would have been absolutely bad ass. Leave Corvette for the IRS elites. Chevy missed on Camaro identity and it caught up with them on Gen6.

 

[NoVaGT]

.......as others have pointed out, Ford did more than just repeat the SRA in the S197 they maximized it's performance. It is really a great package....

The S197 was maximizing the performance of the SRA, to the best engineering abilities of Ford's crack team of accountants.

 

[edco]

The S197 was supposed to be built on DEW98 (Jaguar/Lincoln), but it was too expensive. So, they watered it down a bit. Even the watered down IRS was considered too expensive, so they devolved it even further to the SRA that wound up in production. The opinion of some club members had nothing to do with the SRA being in the S197. If Ford listened to us, there wouldn't be a crossover wearing a Pony.

Foggy memory aside, I remember Hau Thai Tang on Charlie Rose (or some TV spot) talking about the S197 and he told the MCA story. The inside accounting story may be right. I have no way of knowing. Maybe they are both right, the car rolls out with a SRA either way.

 

[Norm Peterson]

A little searching on 'Integral Link' turned up this little abstract . . . for what it's worth.

Conference paper
First Online: 23 October 2012

The objective was the development of a new suspension architecture for Ford’s global CD platform. This suspension architecture was required to improve vehicle driving comfort and noise without compromising the high level of steering and handling performance of the Ford Mondeo to date. Moreover, the new suspension architecture had to fulfil a number of challenging package requirements. The newly developed rear suspension is an integral link suspension. This is an independent suspension system connecting a wheel carrier to an isolated subframe by means of a lower control arm, a camber link and a toe link. The wheel carrier is directly connected to the lower control arm via a pivot point and indirectly via an additional link, the integral link. This link decouples castor compliance from longitudinal compliance and prevents the need for a trailing link or control blade. The most important result is a substantial reduction of cruising interior noise. Impact harshness, noise and aftershake have significantly improved. The improvements in vehicle comfort have not affected the vehicle steering and handling performance. As a result, the new Ford Mondeo suits both relaxed and sporty driving styles.

Keywords

Integral link suspension Driving dynamics Driving comfort Suspension design principles

Norm

 

[K4fxd]

Before I modded my IRS mustangs rear it felt like I was driving a drag car with 10 psi in the slicks.

 

[dman]

It's probably the story he tells himself to take the sting out of the bean counters gutting his car

Ford bean counters…98 Cobras had the strut tower brace pulled
and went into production before SVT knew it had been done.
Ford tried to cover their ### by claiming the unibody had been
stiffened. SVT engineers confirmed…bullshit!
gotta love corporate internal battles. I’m sure Ford could have
made money adding 50 bucks to the sticker…

 

[PaddyPrix]

Ford bean counters…98 Cobras had the strut tower brace pulled
and went into production before SVT knew it had been done.
Ford tried to cover their ### by claiming the unibody had been
stiffened. SVT engineers confirmed…bullshit!
gotta love corporate internal battles. I’m sure Ford could have
made money adding 50 bucks to the sticker…

I'll try to find my window sticker, but I'll bet they still charged $50 more because they called that racing weight modification.

 

[edco]

It's probably the story he tells himself to take the sting out of the bean counters gutting his car

Like Ray Liotta said in Goodfellows 'everybody takes a beating sometime.' I am back for more. I still have magazines [ Mustang 5.0, Mustangs & Fords, Mustangs & Fast Fords, Modified Mustangs] from 2004 to 2009. The stack is about a foot high. Open anyone of them, half of the mags are aftermarket ads. There are countless products for the 8.8" rear axle. Solid axles, hollow axles, C-clip eliminators, differentials-a dozen, ring&pinion sets- a dozen, control rod relocation brackets, adjustable pan hard bar, control arms, upper link,s lower links, kinks in links, name it. Don't want to DIY, go to Strange or FRPP and buy the whole SRA finished to your spec. The point being the SRA was a big part of Mustang world. Is there a modified Fox Body or S95 anywhere that the owner did not have axle mods? And the parts were cheap. There were thousands of buyers. My Ford Racing 3.73 Ring & Pinion set was $150 delivered! Name a car more modify friendly than Mustang? Builders and buyers were tooled up for the 8.8 SRA.

So why is it so hard to believe that MCofA wanted the S197 to run the 8.8" SRA?

 

[dman]

I'll try to find my window sticker, but I'll bet they still charged $50 more because they called that racing weight modification.

I’ll check mine as well. the info I got was that the brace and install
cost Ford about $70.00 per vehicle. Multiply by 9,000 units…
$630,000. profit margins…! SVT had listed the brace for install.

 

[edco]

It's probably the story he tells himself to take the sting out of the bean counters gutting his car

There is dollar accounting then engineering accounting. The 8.8 "SRA is 128# in a shipping crate. Add IRS and the S197 starts to move up to S550 weight, above 3500#. The 2007 GT Premium quoted at 3356#. Mustang is a performance model. Weight is a number just as torque and horsepower that figures into the performance profile. I think Tang got the car he wanted. The FR500C dominated SCCA. They changed rules to slow it down. My GT is down to about 3200#. You call it a gutted car. I call it fast. A Dodge Demon will suck the grill off it in a straight line on the Interstate. In hill country or county roads that 4500# IRS Demon performs like a short school bus. The only way he sees my tail lights is if I am towing him.

 

[edco]

Yeah, and dollar accounting always wins. First you try to say he wanted IRS, but was talked down by some club members. Now it's the SRA he wanted in the first place. I'm not buying either story. A proper DEW98 Mustang was deemed too expensive, and that's all there is too it. Same story with the CD6 Mustang that might have been. It's cheaper to ride the (modified as it may be) D2C into the electric crossover sunset.

I don't know your references. Unfamiliar with DEW98, CD6, or D2C.
Don't work inside Ford. I do remember Tang speaking to your point
on Charlie Rose. He said if we could charge $80K for a Mustang it
would be a very different car than what we offer. But we can't.
The entry level on S197 was maybe $21K? To that point you are right.
But the bean counting is not all about greed it is about filling rail
cars in Flat Rock, MI.

 

[308 Cal. Bullitt]

Bullitt, that's a mess to read, but reasonably helpful.

I think many OEM engineering decisions are much more about reaching fuel economy numbers instead of building a stronger or faster car. To your point, a Super 8.8 wasn't designed to transfer big power without breaking. It was designed to transmit small amounts with minimal loss. Using 24.8 HP instead of 25 to go 60mph is a big deal to an OEM because of governmental standards, not consumer demand.

It looks like I'll have to be happy with a 3.31 gear from Ford and the tallest tires I can find (which limits selection).

 

[308 Cal. Bullitt]

Bullitt, that's a mess to read, but reasonably helpful.

I think many OEM engineering decisions are much more about reaching fuel economy numbers instead of building a stronger or faster car. To your point, a Super 8.8 wasn't designed to transfer big power without breaking. It was designed to transmit small amounts with minimal loss. Using 24.8 HP instead of 25 to go 60mph is a big deal to an OEM because of governmental standards, not consumer demand.

It looks like I'll have to be happy with a 3.31 gear from Ford and the tallest tires I can find (which limits selection).

NO FACTORY rear end GEAR SIZE OR DESIGNED, WAS MADE for HP or Torque..
...dude...

A Stk 9" is SUCH A WEAK phookin mess,

that Anyone w/300hp+, IN A 4SPEED TOP LOADER CAR, weighing over ~3800lbs..
W/OR W/O drag radial tires.
Can pull the pinion support right out the front on any surface better than street asphalt.. aka, drag strip.

So that dog wont hunt. Clearly the POINT OF rear end design & the arguments the physics majors hav made for yrs bout diff rear differentials, was all wasted typing..

Trying to teach REAL WORLD VS what ur physics calcs tell all yhe key board jockeys who have never built 1 world championship race vehicle.
Much less. So gawd dahhm many .. a guy looses count of. That ur tellin him his post is a mess.
This bery typical , ungrateful, and always right generation of forum jockeys.
Who were working on English minors, while real technology developers were..

Were in the shop. Not on a puter...
GETTIN IT DONE... Cats like;
Smokey...
Remington..
The Garr..
Ak Miller..
Mad Dog.. 10 Wrld champ'ships, built last car of his 10.. won 1st 7 of 11, NHRA Events.
Widmer...Ford Pwr Gawd/colleague
Buterra..
Hume..
Sarti..
Swindal..
Long, don..
Nichoson..
'Willie' Jenkins...
Ronnie & Buddy..
Leal...
Lunn..
Eicke- both now dead brothers
Maropolous...bill
Brock...
Tone..(Christian)..
David & Buddy..
Iaconio...
Ron Butler...
Kenny M.
Sperling..ken
Kaase..
Stange..
Mark..
Lamb..
Leonard Abbott..
Liberty..Joe & Craig..
Leonard Long & Mike..
Rells...
Ness...
Hajek..
Dishbein..
Moore..
Ed Weidamann...
& 100+ more, Real players.. Who got real results w/o silly livin in world of comments like, "its not a rear end made for pwr?? "
We ran what we had available. Most programs didnt hav big budgets. Thats Hollywood bullchit. Not reality..

None of the strong diff's are OEMS!

Does it stop guys from runnin low 7s on 8.8s? Not even Supers... Nope.. so ur point is beyond nonsense.

Racers use whats avail. Not in dream land.
Nothing we used from the factory in 5+Decades, was made for hi-hp tostart with
Certainly not a stock 9" Ford.

Sheesh.
Why do we even try to pass along info people??

Who will never be exposed to real technology 3 lifetimes.???
Unless they read it on the web.

Or a text book author, who never won a world championship....

( if u dont know 20% of who these guys R , above??
U hav No real idea who the players are & are not, have been the last several decades. & my list us extremely short on the reality of all the real developers of what u all take for granted by reading on wikis and websites.
So unless u saw/heard there names in a fictional Hollywood twisted plotline, or some neflux documentary..)

So.. at over 30+yrs and 65,000+ hrs.
Im not in bad company from above.
As only myself & Phil on that list can lay vlaim to holding records in OEM wind tunnels on racecars.

So yeah. Delete my mess and move on..

& take the physics expers w/ya.
Show of hand here?
How many got Over 10x world championship builds under there belts here?
Or not just wind tunnel exp. But actually set and held records in 1?
Cuz unless u hav REALLY LIVED IT AND DONE IT.
A that keyboard cowboy expertise, means less than nuthin...

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