Working on a dual intake?

[WildHorse]

...and with tuning device/credits/tune it's a $2000 investment with that c8 e99 ecm.
The 23' Ford 150 is a far cry from the 24' Mustang.

IF the 24 s650 is cracked insiders say your gonna lose the entertainment center & AC, service light on & mandatory service required. ET will be phoning home.

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[luca1290]

I don't know, mine is just speculation.
I'm no expert but usually this kind of things are done to insulate turbulences and other unwanted influence between cylinders, it's less expensive to just put a bigger filter and a bigger throttle body.

 

[K4fxd]

IF the 24 s650 is cracked insiders say your gonna lose the entertainment center & AC, service light on & mandatory service required. ET will be phoning home.

This is all to be seen.

I won't have a S650 anyway, too damn ugly inside and out.

I would like to try and get both TB's to operate on one signal so I could put the new manifold on my gen 2. I think this should be do able.

 

[WildHorse]

I would like to try and get both TB's to operate on one signal so I could put the new manifold on my gen 2. I think this should be do able.

A CJ with a big ole twin is much more doable.

 

[K4fxd]

A CJ with a big ole twin is much more doable.

Yes, but I like to be different.

 

[WildHorse]

Yes, but I like to be different.

understatement of the 21st century.

 

[Cory S]

...and with tuning device/credits/tune it's a $2000 investment with that c8 e99 ecm.
The 23' Ford 150 is a far cry from the 24' Mustang.

IF the 24 s650 is cracked insiders say your gonna lose the entertainment center & AC, service light on & mandatory service required. ET will be phoning home.

 

[Brian O]

I imagine it works like the secondaries of a 4bbl carb. Someplace around 1/4 throttle the 2nd TB will start to open and they will sync somewhere around 3/4 throttle.

Just my educated guess.

So my guess is that none of this would be a linear percentage. The computer can now determine temperature, humidity, atmospheric pressure (or actual altitude above or below sea level), or density altitude for the pilots out there. Then based on how close that pedal is to the floor (power requested), open each or both to meet demand. It could also be "feathered" according to traction control to make sure every demanded HP is delivered as requested ...... unless a smoke show is what is desired.
This is Formula 1 stuff, but likely finally available to production cars.

Just my thoughts

 

[engineermike]

Just speculating here based on observations….

The problem with bigger throttle bodies is loss of fine control at small openings for things like idle, and also the mass of the large blade being hard to move quickly. The latter I believe causes issues with the Whipple kit, which puts the stock actuator on a massive blade and often generates tb errors during transitions. The stock gt500 blade is obviously larger than stock gt, but the max throttle commanded movement rate is also slower. Twin small tb’s would fix both of these issues.

That said, I think sending two to a desired location wouldn’t be too hard, because all you need is power, ground, and signal, all of which can most likely be run in parallel. The tb model would be simple enough to fix by starting out doubling all the areas, modifying the inverse table to match, then turning off PID control and fine-tune until actual airflow matches desired, then turn PID back on.

The problem arises when you start considering feedback control and diagnostics. Each tb has dual tps sensors, one working in reverse. There is a nested feedback loop where it compares the sensors to the commanded signal and always works to reduce this error. If the error becomes too large you get fmem mode and a wrench light. If the two sensors don’t agree with one another you get fmem and a wrench light.

My guess is that the “outer” feedback loop (that corrects tb angle to make airflow mach desired) controls the overall correction that is later divided up between a lead and lag tb, and there are dual “inner” feedback loops where each tb angle is corrected independently to go to where it’s intended.

I further guess that the two tb’s are controlled similar to how they divide up fuel between port and direct injection. Direct injection is primarily controlled and “everything else” goes to port. In that manner, your lead tb would be the main control and the second one would only open to control what is leftover.

 

[Jaymar]

I think you guys are overthinking the problem. If I were to guess, I'd bet that one TB works like the good old fashioned one we know and bitch about now vis-a-vis feedback loop, commanded load and engine load across the full range idle to WOT. Then, to prevent battling throttle syndrome, feedback loops, etc. the second TB would be the "dumb" one that gets set to a fixed position from a basic RPM/load table above a point where the second TB becomes helpful instead of harmful to low speed control or idle. Much like secondaries as already mentioned. I have a similar problem on a machine I work on and this is how we solved it.

 

[4V Mayhem]

HP tuners cracked the 23 corvette, SCT cracked the 23 F150 , not sure if HP cracked it yet. The S650 mustang will be cracked sooner or later.

Did they really "crack" it or did GM give them access and instructions? I don't think they did it, as in the figured it out, on their own. I think GM, most likely after a little palm grease, opened it up for them. Just my take.

 

[4V Mayhem]

I wouldn't use the term "cracked" in the sense of what is available in the wild and can be accomplished in the S550 can be done or will be possible with the S650.

Ford has offered they intend to work with specific, authorized businesses to do certain things, all of which I believe remain unknown.

Stay tuned (pun intended) for more insight, once these providers begin offering product.

https://www.carscoops.com/2022/10/t...t-more-power-from-the-2024-s650-ford-mustang/

https://www.musclecarsandtrucks.com...ine-tuning-cheif-engineer-ed-krenz-interview/

I was told that this is all hush hush so that is all I can say. But I am pretty sure there will be tuning available almost immediately.

 

[engineermike]

I think you guys are overthinking the problem. If I were to guess, I'd bet that one TB works like the good old fashioned one we know and bitch about now vis-a-vis feedback loop, commanded load and engine load across the full range idle to WOT. Then, to prevent battling throttle syndrome, feedback loops, etc. the second TB would be the "dumb" one that gets set to a fixed position from a basic RPM/load table above a point where the second TB becomes helpful instead of harmful to low speed control or idle. Much like secondaries as already mentioned. I have a similar problem on a machine I work on and this is how we solved it.

When trying to figure out how ford might control a second tb, I don’t think it’s possible to “overthink” it. As ford has made so many things about 5x more complicated than anyone could have imagined.

That said, now that I think about it, the simplest controls implementation of it would be to have the second tb controlled by the wot-start and wot-end tables only. Then the tb model and flow feedback loop would be irrelevant, and only the angle pid inner loop would be active. This would alleviate many potential controls issues as you mention.

 

[Mach VII]

Why Porsche uses individual throttle bodies in their 911 GT3:

At the 2019 New York International Auto Show, Porsche Motorsport's road-car boss, Andreas Preuninger, told us that his team first investigated individual throttle bodies as a way to make the engine even better. "Individual throttle bodies are known in racing for throttle response, performance, better part-load throttle behavior, more torque in the mid-range, and simply faster reaction to changes," he said.

But, the individual throttle bodies also help promote tumble for the intake charge as it enters the combustion chamber, which the manifold can't do on its own. "That makes for a better combustion, cleaner burn, and less emissions," Preuninger said. "[It kills] two flies with one clap. It's a win-win situation."

Sounds like Ford took a similar but less expensive approach... perhaps one throttle body feeds one set of intake manifold runners and the second feeds a second set for high RPM usage.

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