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TexasRebel

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Seems to have the issues I described above. This tech is used in diesels on the injectors, which are a less severe service than what would be needed on a gas car. the diesel injector has less cycles/second, and duration is longer. And they still cost an arm and a leg to replace, and go out relatively often, probably the most replaced part of the engine. And the system to operate it is also another major headache and source of frustration (I have to pull the HPO system apart in my truck this month actually..)

However, when it works, it does wonders for power and efficiency. I cannot imagine trying to double or triple the number of them on an engine and expect them to all last.

One important different between the diesel injectors that use these and using them for valves is the clearance. On a performance engine the valves at full travel occupy a space that is used by the piston at TDC. On the diesels the injectors do not, they occupy a space that is hollowed out in the piston top. So in a diesel injector failure there is no contact issue between the injector and the piston. On a gas car, there would more likely be a contact which blows a hole in the piston, requiring very extensive repairs for a fairly common failure.
Solenoids can still act against valve springs. Failure of the solenoid would be similar to a flat cam... reduced lift. No extra risk for interference.
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Jimmy Dean

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Solenoids can still act against valve springs. Failure of the solenoid would be similar to a flat cam... reduced lift. No extra risk for interference.
Solenoids can also stick in the energized position, and they can also get a failed signal and stay energized, which is where the risk is. Albeit it is more likely that they would fail in the de-energized position due to the spring. the work I do involves solenoids on industrial equipment, and i.m.e. about 40% of solenoid mechanical failures are stuck in the energized position, with about half of those being broken springs, the other half some form of seizing (galling, debris causing lock-up, bent post preventing retraction). Most electrical failures are a loss of signal, with only a small portion being an improper energize signal, but these are not directly solenoid related, these are control system failures. failure of the coil typically results in a fail to de-energize, or it 'functions' but does not fully stroke upon an energizing signal (typically result of low magnetic field caused by a short between windings)
 

TexasRebel

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Solenoids can also stick in the energized position, and they can also get a failed signal and stay energized, which is where the risk is. Albeit it is more likely that they would fail in the de-energized position due to the spring. the work I do involves solenoids on industrial equipment, and i.m.e. about 40% of solenoid mechanical failures are stuck in the energized position, with about half of those being broken springs, the other half some form of seizing (galling, debris causing lock-up, bent post preventing retraction). Most electrical failures are a loss of signal, with only a small portion being an improper energize signal, but these are not directly solenoid related, these are control system failures. failure of the coil typically results in a fail to de-energize, or it 'functions' but does not fully stroke upon an energizing signal (typically result of low magnetic field caused by a short between windings)
Broken springs are already a concern with cams, and lifters can get stuck due to a burr in the oil gallery, (or in my case a broken plunger retaining clip).
As I said, no additional risk of collision in an interference engine.

Which industrial equipment? There's an outside chance I helped design it.
 

Jimmy Dean

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Broken springs are already a concern with cams, and lifters can get stuck due to a burr in the oil gallery, (or in my case a broken plunger retaining clip).
As I said, no additional risk of collision in an interference engine.

Which industrial equipment? There's an outside chance I helped design it.
for solenoids, primarily ASCO types. I engineer control valves, we use ASCOs on safety and trip systems, so they do see significantly less cycles, and less controlled enviroments, than the use being discussed here, but there are some constants in electrical solenoids.

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Norm Peterson

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Broken springs are already a concern with cams, and lifters can get stuck due to a burr in the oil gallery, (or in my case a broken plunger retaining clip).
As I said, no additional risk of collision in an interference engine.
That's only the mechanical side.

As you introduce electrics/electronics into what was previously an all-mechanical system, you're going to add faults that were flat-out impossible in the original system.

This would apply to any form of electronic control over valve operation, probably including TiVCT.


Norm
 

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TexasRebel

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for solenoids, primarily ASCO types. I engineer control valves, we use ASCOs on safety and trip systems, so they do see significantly less cycles, and less controlled enviroments, than the use being discussed here, but there are some constants in electrical solenoids.

What about you?
Horizontal Drills.

All I'm saying is, by using solenoids you don't add any new failures, but you do alter the modes of failure.
There are only 4 conditions:
1) Valve open/closed properly (Ideal)
2) Valve open properly/closed improperly (stuck valve, broken spring, hot solenoid, etc... dead cylinder, collision in some engines)
3) Valve open improperly/closed properly (flat cam lobe, broken cam follower/lifter, broken rocker arm, dead/weak solenoid, etc... dead/weak cylinder, no collision)
4) Valve open/closed improperly (least common, timing off, valve stuck hard, spring weak, cam flat, likely won't start/run, low compression, collisions possible)

The tradeoff is having full control of the valve train timing. No approach limits or ramp considerations on your followers/lifters. Duration that was impossible with a mechanical cam is suddenly possible. However, there may be more variance in event timing since valves are no longer mechanically linked. Feedback loops are required.
 

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Not to get back on topic, but isn't the 7.3 a truck engine? I recall back in the stone ages trying to use a truck engine in a car. They were built for endurance and torque, with very heavy internals, small valve heads, low compression and very restrictive intakes and exhaust. It took a ton of work to get them to perform how you like for use in a car... unless you use your car for pulling stumps. I'm no expert, but from what I've read about this 7.3, it seems like there may be better choices... like a Chevy LS7 :giggle:
 

Flat Stanely

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FWIW most diesels nowadays use wafers that respond to electrical impulses. Piezo wafers i believe is what theyre called. Anyway it allows them to pulsate 1000s of times in a SINGLE injection! Reduced emissions and mo powa baby. Similar tech could be used on valves. Manufactures just dont feel the cost is worth it yet.
Back to the main point....7.3=stupid in a mustang. If there were that much of a craving for a bigger engine you would've seen a bunch of 6.2 swaps

Edit: im talking pick up truck diesels like duramax etc. Not necessarily a Detriot. I have no idea what the newest version of DDEC is
 

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Not to get back on topic, but isn't the 7.3 a truck engine? I recall back in the stone ages trying to use a truck engine in a car. They were built for endurance and torque, with very heavy internals, small valve heads, low compression and very restrictive intakes and exhaust. It took a ton of work to get them to perform how you like for use in a car... unless you use your car for pulling stumps. I'm no expert, but from what I've read about this 7.3, it seems like there may be better choices... like a Chevy LS7 :giggle:
This is old thinking. This 7.3 does not have small restrictive heads with small valves. It has high flowing heads with giant valves, beehive springs, lightweight retainers, aluminum roller rockers etc. This engine does not run out of breath at 4000 rpm, it's max HP occurs at 5500 (with a truck cam).

An excerpt from mustang360:

:Now-retired Ford executive Brian Wolfe, who has long drag raced and was instrumental in the rebirth of the Mustang Cobra Jet, shepherded it into existence. As such, this engine was built from an enthusiast's viewpoint and it incorporates lessons from Ford's boosted diesel and gas engines to create an engine that is described as 'overbuilt' for its intended application.:

http://www.mustangandfords.com/features/1908-ford-godzilla-73-liter

Why some of you still think this engine is going to be a low performing boat anchor is beyond me. Quite honestly, this engine is likely a cam swap, headers and tune away from 500+hp

A quote from Beltramo:

" If they want to stay with steel valves and such, so they're going to be far more rpm limited than Coyote is, but if they want to go spend the money for titanium valves, well then they get away from a lot of stuff and then they have 7.3 liters," Joel said of those looking to modify the engine."

http://www.mustangandfords.com/features/1908-ford-godzilla-73-liter

These guys absolutely know the potentials this engine has.
 

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This is old thinking. This 7.3 does not have small restrictive heads with small valves. It has high flowing heads with giant valves, beehive springs, lightweight retainers, aluminum roller rockers etc. This engine does not run out of breath at 4000 rpm, it's max HP occurs at 5500 (with a truck cam).
All I'm saying is it is never as simple as it looks. I'll wait and see when somebody actually uses the 7.3 in a Mustang and how much it costs. There is always something... excess weight, inadequate cooling capacity, clearance issues, so forth.
 

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Norm Peterson

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This is old thinking. This 7.3 does not have small restrictive heads with small valves. It has high flowing heads with giant valves, beehive springs, lightweight retainers, aluminum roller rockers etc. This engine does not run out of breath at 4000 rpm, it's max HP occurs at 5500 (with a truck cam).
It's still basically a 6000 rpm motor in a 7500 rpm world.

An excerpt from mustang360:

:Now-retired Ford executive Brian Wolfe, who has long drag raced and was instrumental in the rebirth of the Mustang Cobra Jet, shepherded it into existence. As such, this engine was built from a drag racing/street race enthusiast's viewpoint
Fixed. Mr. Wolfe has obviously been bringing his drag racing avocation into his professional world. Not saying it was wrong for him to do so, but it has brought along a few biases.


Why some of you still think this engine is going to be a low performing boat anchor is beyond me.
Until it at least gets an aluminum block, it's going to remain heavier than necessary for use in a car. Durability for extended towing or for carrying heavy payloads where higher power levels are required on a continuous basis just isn't necessary in a car like it is in a truck that works for a living.

What it seems to be - so far - is a Ford reinterpretation of Chevy's LS6/454. Just with slightly smaller bores and a little longer stroke, no doubt forced by the 115mm/4.53" bore spacing (just like the modulars are hamstrung by their 100mm spacing). You might see a hint of L88 in the use of aluminum heads, but even taking all that together it's still 1960's thinking.

Quite honestly, this engine is likely a cam swap, headers and tune away from 500+hp
And as just a 3-valve design it'd already be close to 500 hp/500 ft*lbs with about the same amount of cam as what the weakish 4.6 3-valve uses.


These guys absolutely know the potentials this engine has.
The potential that it has and the potential it could have had are two different things.


Norm
 

millhouse

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All I'm saying is it is never as simple as it looks. I'll wait and see when somebody actually uses the 7.3 in a Mustang and how much it costs. There is always something... excess weight, inadequate cooling capacity, clearance issues, so forth.
Make no mistake. I don't think it's going to be simple.

It's still basically a 6000 rpm motor in a 7500 rpm world.
It's a 6000 rpm motor because the cam dictates where the power falls off. Looking at the dyno graph, the power just starts to taper off as it approaches 6000 RPM. 6500 RPM should be no problem with this engine, which is right in line with what the competition is putting out.

Fixed. Mr. Wolfe has obviously been bringing his drag racing avocation into his professional world. Not saying it was wrong for him to do so, but it has brought along a few biases.
Right or wrong, one can infer that they designed these engines with more than just stump pulling in mind.

Until it at least gets an aluminum block, it's going to remain heavier than necessary for use in a car. Durability for extended towing or for carrying heavy payloads where higher power levels are required on a continuous basis just isn't necessary in a car like it is in a truck that works for a living.
Heavier then necessary, but not excessively. Nothing I have seen in this design points to this engine being a pig. I think some in here get too caught up with previous notions that big block truck engines have to be boat anchors.

What it seems to be - so far - is a Ford reinterpretation of Chevy's LS6/454. Just with slightly smaller bores and a little longer stroke, no doubt forced by the 115mm/4.53" bore spacing (just like the modulars are hamstrung by their 100mm spacing). You might see a hint of L88 in the use of aluminum heads, but even taking all that together it's still 1960's thinking.

And as just a 3-valve design it'd already be close to 500 hp/500 ft*lbs with about the same amount of cam as what the weakish 4.6 3-valve uses.
Are you aware what the valve size is on this engine? Shrouding? Lift? A bit more to the equation than just area. A bigger bore allows for larger valves. And this is already stated to have beehive springs to allow for large lift values.

The potential that it has and the potential it could have had are two different things.
Indeed. What side of the fence you are on seems to follow what your preferred engine is (except of course for me). I prefer the coyote, hands down. I love the potential this engine has...based on all of the current information and components we know...for the right applications. I would love to see this thing in a shelby cobra kit car...or a foxbody.
 
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bootlegger

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Seems to have the issues I described above. This tech is used in diesels on the injectors, which are a less severe service than what would be needed on a gas car. the diesel injector has less cycles/second, and duration is longer. And they still cost an arm and a leg to replace, and go out relatively often, probably the most replaced part of the engine. And the system to operate it is also another major headache and source of frustration (I have to pull the HPO system apart in my truck this month actually..)
I am in injector development now. Diesel injectors, especially piezo actuated, will last hundreds of thousands of miles if they aren't seeing deposits, contamination, or excessive heat. The main issue is the poor quality diesel in the USA, not the reliability of the technology. I have analyze a number of injectors that had 300k miles or more, yet they still passed performance testing. Pretty amazing when you consider these injectors are injecting 3-7 times a cycle at 2000+ bar.
 

bootlegger

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Solenoids can also stick in the energized position, and they can also get a failed signal and stay energized, which is where the risk is. Albeit it is more likely that they would fail in the de-energized position due to the spring. the work I do involves solenoids on industrial equipment, and i.m.e. about 40% of solenoid mechanical failures are stuck in the energized position, with about half of those being broken springs, the other half some form of seizing (galling, debris causing lock-up, bent post preventing retraction). Most electrical failures are a loss of signal, with only a small portion being an improper energize signal, but these are not directly solenoid related, these are control system failures. failure of the coil typically results in a fail to de-energize, or it 'functions' but does not fully stroke upon an energizing signal (typically result of low magnetic field caused by a short between windings)
7 years working with solenoid and piezo injectors, and I have only seen one or two cases of the solenoid failing in the energized position. When we have a "stuck open" condition, it usually isn't because of a failed solenoid. It's due to the mechanical systems attached to them (nozzle needle stuck open, actuator stuck due to deposits, valve group failures, etc). Not saying it won't happen in a solenoid cam system, but I don't see the failure rate being any higher than what you get with mechanical cams/valves.
 

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It's a 6000 rpm motor because the cam dictates where the power falls off. Looking at the dyno graph, the power just starts to taper off as it approaches 6000 RPM. 6500 RPM should be no problem with this engine, which is right in line with what the competition is putting out.
It's a 6000 rpm motor for a more basic reason than that. 4000 fps mean piston speed is still a pretty good guideline for a large displacement engine. Unless you like doing periodic refreshes.

I have no idea what happened that caused what I posted to be assigned to somebody else. I'll do the best I can with what I recognize.

Right or wrong, one can infer that they designed these engines with more than just stump pulling in mind.
Mr. Wolfe was also behind the Cobra Jet. Do you really think that when he started with this engine program he forgot all about that and what he does in his spare time? That some of the reports mention that 'performance' was at least kept in mind tells me that his drag racer side showed up in the office.


Heavier then necessary, but not excessively. Nothing I have seen in this design points to this engine being a pig. I think some in here get too caught up with previous notions that big block truck engines have to be boat anchors.
In this era of 450 lb V8 engines, even with aluminum heads an iron-block 4" stroke OHV engine is going to tip the scales at roughly a hundred lbs more. For a car these days, that is getting into boat anchor territory.


Are you aware what the valve size is on this engine? Shrouding? Lift? A bit more to the equation than just area. A bigger bore allows for larger valves. And this is already stated to have beehive springs to allow for large lift values.
Volume, not area. If you scale the displacement up from 4.6 to 7.3, it should follow that other dimensions would scale up as well. Valve sizes would necessarily have to scale up. But all I was looking at was what it could have been with a 3-valve design based on how that turned out in the 4.6.


Indeed. What side of the fence you are on seems to follow what your preferred engine is (except of course for me). I prefer the coyote, hands down. I love the potential this engine has...based on all of the current information and components we know...for the right applications. I would love to see this thing in a shelby cobra kit car...or a foxbody.
This 7.3 could have been so much more. And it still could be, in destroked aluminum-block 3-valve SOHC trim, where the head size argument mostly goes away (the 7.3's heads are pretty tall themselves).

Even the Coyote isn't what it could have been, being stuck with 100 mm bore spacing . . . a limitation more suitable for a 4.2L engine (only about 85% of the Coyote's displacement).


Norm
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