Which stage 1

[tnk_2]

I waited 18 weeks for my 3.0L Whipple.

I would say get a Edelbrock or a vmp if you don't want to wait as long.

The torque of both of those tvs blowers is even more than the Whipple down low and it will give. you that "wow factor" from what I have seen.

But they all make power. Chances are you aren't trying to max out the blower, most people aren't. Any is a good choice. I added a link so you could see what I mean, visually.

I am no expert in this, but from what I have been reading on here alot of people complaint that roush, vmp and whipple make too much power down low that traction is an issue on the first few gears. they like the centri , so it would ramp the power in slowly at first. if that is the case, don't you want the whipple instead of vmp or roush?

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[19BULLITTwhipple]

I am no expert in this, but from what I have been reading on here alot of people complaint that roush, vmp and whipple make too much power down low that traction is an issue on the first few gears. they like the centri , so it would ramp the power in slowly at first. if that is the case, don't you want the whipple instead of vmp or roush?

personally I like the low end power. I would rather shoot out front in a race at the low end then try to catch up on the top end.

get the right tires and traction shouldn’t be an issue with 700 hp

 

[Semp1]

So whipple is backed up? Seems like they are in stock at a lot of online retailers.

They’re not. You order and it ships direct from whipple. You’ll wait months.

 

[brucelinc]

I am no expert in this, but from what I have been reading on here alot of people complaint that roush, vmp and whipple make too much power down low that traction is an issue on the first few gears. they like the centri , so it would ramp the power in slowly at first. if that is the case, don't you want the whipple instead of vmp or roush?

I have the phase 2 Roush. For street driving, I do like the low end torque...although for just cruising around or driving in traffic, I am never in the boost anyway. In those conditions, it just feels stock. When I am able to exercise it on the street, the torque feels great without having to scream the engine and draw unwanted attention. I do run Nitto 555Rii DRs in the summer and they work well and harness the torque nicely from a roll. The street tires I use in cold weather will break traction VERY easily.....fun but potentially dangerous. LOL

At the strip, the Nitto DRs are somewhat lacking. I cannot get a great 60 foot time due to either leaving too hard and getting wheelspin or leaving to gently to AVOID wheelspin. I run consistent 10.9s with the stock tune in a fully loaded car with no other mods except the DRs. I am pretty certain that 17 inch MT street Rs and lighter front wheels/tires would cut a couple tenths off those results.

 

[Avispa]

Just my 2 cents, if you're looking at VMP, check the blower case and compare it to a comparable Roush blower. At least on the Gen 2, the Roush has a detachable intake elbow. VMP doesn't. Next time you have to replace a lil nugget like a canister purge valve or an injector, you might wish you had the detachable one. I love my VMP, it came with the car, but the cuts and scrapes are still healing from changing the canister purge valve. #%##%##!!

 

[Angrey]

This is a complex decision tree with several inputs and changes of direction depending on the answers.

The first is, do you want or need a warranty. If yes, Roush/FRPP installed by a dealer is your only option.

Second, do you want a 50 state legal tune? If yes, then Roush and/or Whipple are your best bets.

If you've said no to both of those, then it comes down to preference and use. Positive displacement blowers have their pros and cons, just like centrifugals, just like turbos, just like nitrous. You can spend days and weeks reading countless other threads that discuss them.

Next is, once you've decided on your system, do you want to buy new or used. That will determine supply and how quickly you can get your setup. As stated above, Whipple, along with many other complex assembly manufacturers is backed up. There's hundreds, probably thousands of component parts in a typical power adder "kit" and it only takes one or a few of those items being backordered to cause real problems. Some items they can use alternates, some, not so much.

So, if you want NEW, there's some that are having a better time with covid disruptions than others. If you want used, and you're patient, you can generally find most blower kits on the used market at one time or another over the course of a few months.

I'll end by saying that the positive displacement market has taken some weird turns lately.

Most "roots" style blower systems are based off the Eaton TVS platform. So whether it's Roush, FRPP, VMP, Eaton, they're all starting with the same core rotor pack. The differences are minor to significant in all the bells and whistles (intakes, porting, cooling assemblies, etc).

In the past, the entire reason to go with a roots over a twin screw was cost. The reason most auto manufacturers that want a positive displacement blower go with roots is because they're cheaper to manufacture. The tolerances on the rotor packs aren't as demanding and the majority of the performance challenge is getting good seal between the rotor pack and the case (usually accomplished with a replaceable wear material). The whole thing is similar to a jet ski impeller that spins inside a delrin wear ring. When it's brand new, you get full thrust. Over time, as debris goes through and just normal wear, the jet ski loses some of it's thrust and speed and the wear ring has to be replaced. This allows for more forgiving tolerances and manufacturing.

Twin screw rotors however, HAVE to be very precise and they have to be held and aligned to each other very precisely. This costs more money in technology, materials, machining, etc.

Generally, twin screws were more expensive than roots. However, the benefit of the twin screw is that it is adiabatically more efficient. This is an incontrovertible fact.

All things being equal, 2 blowers of the same volumetric size and general rotor ratios, one being roots, one being twin screw, the twin screw will either make MORE power (at the same boost level) while producing less heat, OR, the twin screw will make the SAME power (but with less boost, less heat and less parasitic losses). These are facts with countless studies, experiments, evaluations, etc.

So what does that mean? It means that in the past, it made sense to buy a roots when it was CHEAPER. Now, for some weird reason, the 2650 TVS platform is selling blower setups for the same or similar pricing to whipple twin screws.

And it's not like the accompanying components are better (cooling, intercooler, etc). Whipple has industry leading cooling components in their newest inverted Gen4/5 stuff.

I'd personally buy and run a VMP or an Eaton, or maybe even a Roush, IF IT WERE AT A DISCOUNT.

I would NOT however spend the same money on a smaller blower, with less efficiency.

That also assumes equal wait times. I understand if Whipple is a 6 month wait and you can get a VMP or Eaton today.

The point is, there ought to be SOME other advantage for choosing a roots over a twin screw (at equal costs) because they're just not equal. Both will make more power than you can probably use. Which is why a lot of people equate them, but the 3.0 isn't just bigger, it has a higher HP ceiling and will do it all with less heat. (over a 2650 variant).

 

[brucelinc]

Maybe things have changed in the past year or so but when I was shopping supercharger kits, there was a significant discount on the Roush or Ford Performance compared to the Whipple. There are dealers installing them for $8500 even now.

 

[Angrey]

Maybe things have changed in the past year or so but when I was shopping supercharger kits, there was a significant discount on the Roush or Ford Performance compared to the Whipple. There are dealers installing them for $8500 even now.

Still true. I was more referring to the Edelbrock and VMP variants that are either close or in some cases more expensive than the whipple kits when you compare them apples/apples with all the components.

 

[vtknight]

This is a complex decision tree with several inputs and changes of direction depending on the answers.

The first is, do you want or need a warranty. If yes, Roush/FRPP installed by a dealer is your only option.

Second, do you want a 50 state legal tune? If yes, then Roush and/or Whipple are your best bets.

If you've said no to both of those, then it comes down to preference and use. Positive displacement blowers have their pros and cons, just like centrifugals, just like turbos, just like nitrous. You can spend days and weeks reading countless other threads that discuss them.

Next is, once you've decided on your system, do you want to buy new or used. That will determine supply and how quickly you can get your setup. As stated above, Whipple, along with many other complex assembly manufacturers is backed up. There's hundreds, probably thousands of component parts in a typical power adder "kit" and it only takes one or a few of those items being backordered to cause real problems. Some items they can use alternates, some, not so much.

So, if you want NEW, there's some that are having a better time with covid disruptions than others. If you want used, and you're patient, you can generally find most blower kits on the used market at one time or another over the course of a few months.

I'll end by saying that the positive displacement market has taken some weird turns lately.

Most "roots" style blower systems are based off the Eaton TVS platform. So whether it's Roush, FRPP, VMP, Eaton, they're all starting with the same core rotor pack. The differences are minor to significant in all the bells and whistles (intakes, porting, cooling assemblies, etc).

In the past, the entire reason to go with a roots over a twin screw was cost. The reason most auto manufacturers that want a positive displacement blower go with roots is because they're cheaper to manufacture. The tolerances on the rotor packs aren't as demanding and the majority of the performance challenge is getting good seal between the rotor pack and the case (usually accomplished with a replaceable wear material). The whole thing is similar to a jet ski impeller that spins inside a delrin wear ring. When it's brand new, you get full thrust. Over time, as debris goes through and just normal wear, the jet ski loses some of it's thrust and speed and the wear ring has to be replaced. This allows for more forgiving tolerances and manufacturing.

Twin screw rotors however, HAVE to be very precise and they have to be held and aligned to each other very precisely. This costs more money in technology, materials, machining, etc.

Generally, twin screws were more expensive than roots. However, the benefit of the twin screw is that it is adiabatically more efficient. This is an incontrovertible fact.

All things being equal, 2 blowers of the same volumetric size and general rotor ratios, one being roots, one being twin screw, the twin screw will either make MORE power (at the same boost level) while producing less heat, OR, the twin screw will make the SAME power (but with less boost, less heat and less parasitic losses). These are facts with countless studies, experiments, evaluations, etc.

So what does that mean? It means that in the past, it made sense to buy a roots when it was CHEAPER. Now, for some weird reason, the 2650 TVS platform is selling blower setups for the same or similar pricing to whipple twin screws.

And it's not like the accompanying components are better (cooling, intercooler, etc). Whipple has industry leading cooling components in their newest inverted Gen4/5 stuff.

I'd personally buy and run a VMP or an Eaton, or maybe even a Roush, IF IT WERE AT A DISCOUNT.

I would NOT however spend the same money on a smaller blower, with less efficiency.

That also assumes equal wait times. I understand if Whipple is a 6 month wait and you can get a VMP or Eaton today.

The point is, there ought to be SOME other advantage for choosing a roots over a twin screw (at equal costs) because they're just not equal. Both will make more power than you can probably use. Which is why a lot of people equate them, but the 3.0 isn't just bigger, it has a higher HP ceiling and will do it all with less heat. (over a 2650 variant).

This is a good post...I think the cooler and more efficient your blower is - the better. I have not been a fan of roots blowers for that very reason.

 

[beefcake]

best is subjective

you have whipple, vmp, edelbrock, and roush,

roush we have in stock, vmp and edelbrock your probably 6-8 weeks, and whipple about 16-18 weeks.

so part of it will depend on if wait time is a concern. all the companies make a nice kit, roush will be the lowest powered of the 4 options.

whipple, vmp and edelbrock all make a quality kit, comes down to price, goals, driving style, and for some looks.

feel free to ring me and we can go over your wants / needs / goals / budget

Feel Free to DM me or call with any questions.
Terry "Beefcake" Reeves
Office - 855-TBR-RACE - Cell 513-478-1965
Owner Team Beefcake - 20+ Years Experience
Deal Directly with the boss, no pushy sales guys!!!!!!!
https://www.beefcakeracing.com - Your Forced Induction Specialists
#beefcakeracing #teambeefcake

 

[mejohn50]

This is a complex decision tree with several inputs and changes of direction depending on the answers.

The first is, do you want or need a warranty. If yes, Roush/FRPP installed by a dealer is your only option.

Second, do you want a 50 state legal tune? If yes, then Roush and/or Whipple are your best bets.

If you've said no to both of those, then it comes down to preference and use. Positive displacement blowers have their pros and cons, just like centrifugals, just like turbos, just like nitrous. You can spend days and weeks reading countless other threads that discuss them.

Next is, once you've decided on your system, do you want to buy new or used. That will determine supply and how quickly you can get your setup. As stated above, Whipple, along with many other complex assembly manufacturers is backed up. There's hundreds, probably thousands of component parts in a typical power adder "kit" and it only takes one or a few of those items being backordered to cause real problems. Some items they can use alternates, some, not so much.

So, if you want NEW, there's some that are having a better time with covid disruptions than others. If you want used, and you're patient, you can generally find most blower kits on the used market at one time or another over the course of a few months.

I'll end by saying that the positive displacement market has taken some weird turns lately.

Most "roots" style blower systems are based off the Eaton TVS platform. So whether it's Roush, FRPP, VMP, Eaton, they're all starting with the same core rotor pack. The differences are minor to significant in all the bells and whistles (intakes, porting, cooling assemblies, etc).

In the past, the entire reason to go with a roots over a twin screw was cost. The reason most auto manufacturers that want a positive displacement blower go with roots is because they're cheaper to manufacture. The tolerances on the rotor packs aren't as demanding and the majority of the performance challenge is getting good seal between the rotor pack and the case (usually accomplished with a replaceable wear material). The whole thing is similar to a jet ski impeller that spins inside a delrin wear ring. When it's brand new, you get full thrust. Over time, as debris goes through and just normal wear, the jet ski loses some of it's thrust and speed and the wear ring has to be replaced. This allows for more forgiving tolerances and manufacturing.

Twin screw rotors however, HAVE to be very precise and they have to be held and aligned to each other very precisely. This costs more money in technology, materials, machining, etc.

Generally, twin screws were more expensive than roots. However, the benefit of the twin screw is that it is adiabatically more efficient. This is an incontrovertible fact.

All things being equal, 2 blowers of the same volumetric size and general rotor ratios, one being roots, one being twin screw, the twin screw will either make MORE power (at the same boost level) while producing less heat, OR, the twin screw will make the SAME power (but with less boost, less heat and less parasitic losses). These are facts with countless studies, experiments, evaluations, etc.

So what does that mean? It means that in the past, it made sense to buy a roots when it was CHEAPER. Now, for some weird reason, the 2650 TVS platform is selling blower setups for the same or similar pricing to whipple twin screws.

And it's not like the accompanying components are better (cooling, intercooler, etc). Whipple has industry leading cooling components in their newest inverted Gen4/5 stuff.

I'd personally buy and run a VMP or an Eaton, or maybe even a Roush, IF IT WERE AT A DISCOUNT.

I would NOT however spend the same money on a smaller blower, with less efficiency.

That also assumes equal wait times. I understand if Whipple is a 6 month wait and you can get a VMP or Eaton today.

The point is, there ought to be SOME other advantage for choosing a roots over a twin screw (at equal costs) because they're just not equal. Both will make more power than you can probably use. Which is why a lot of people equate them, but the 3.0 isn't just bigger, it has a higher HP ceiling and will do it all with less heat. (over a 2650 variant).

Lots of good considerations. I think the 50-state legal options are underrated right now with everything happening with the EPA. It’s a large part of the reason I went away from my initial thought of getting a Procharger. Whipple’s complete kit calibration generally gets pretty good reviews, and I’ll have the CARB EO number.

 

[jojo4711]

best is subjective

you have whipple, vmp, edelbrock, and roush,

roush we have in stock, vmp and edelbrock your probably 6-8 weeks, and whipple about 16-18 weeks.

so part of it will depend on if wait time is a concern. all the companies make a nice kit, roush will be the lowest powered of the 4 options.

whipple, vmp and edelbrock all make a quality kit, comes down to price, goals, driving style, and for some looks.

feel free to ring me and we can go over your wants / needs / goals / budget

Feel Free to DM me or call with any questions.
Terry "Beefcake" Reeves
Office - 855-TBR-RACE - Cell 513-478-1965
Owner Team Beefcake - 20+ Years Experience
Deal Directly with the boss, no pushy sales guys!!!!!!!
https://www.beefcakeracing.com - Your Forced Induction Specialists
#beefcakeracing #teambeefcake

Lots of good points in this thread. I realize "best" is relative, just trying to get an idea of apples to apples comparisons. I would say that 95% of the time I will be just trying like a normal mustang owner, the other 5% I want to have awesome rolling 60-120mph power. I am not patient enough to wait 16 weeks for a whipple. I am looking more at the VMP and Edelbrock but have heard some not so good things about the Edelbrock (or the tune). Internet talk is cheap so IDK whats true and what isnt, so I am leaning towards the VMP Loki to get me started. I have a Lund tune currently on E85 with a flex option that I use most of the time because I do not live around consistent E85. If anyone has anymore input, it would be appreciated, otherwise I will probably be pulling the trigger on the VMP soon.

 

[brucelinc]

I don't know anything about the VMP tune but their kits appear to be quite good. I have heard horror stories about the Edelbrock tune as well as their service. If I were starting over with FI, I would strongly consider VMP.

 

[beefcake]

Lots of good points in this thread. I realize "best" is relative, just trying to get an idea of apples to apples comparisons. I would say that 95% of the time I will be just trying like a normal mustang owner, the other 5% I want to have awesome rolling 60-120mph power. I am not patient enough to wait 16 weeks for a whipple. I am looking more at the VMP and Edelbrock but have heard some not so good things about the Edelbrock (or the tune). Internet talk is cheap so IDK whats true and what isnt, so I am leaning towards the VMP Loki to get me started. I have a Lund tune currently on E85 with a flex option that I use most of the time because I do not live around consistent E85. If anyone has anymore input, it would be appreciated, otherwise I will probably be pulling the trigger on the VMP soon.

if the tune is most important, i do believe the vmps would be the better option , as it is a custom tuner

 

[jojo4711]

If I get the VMP Loki kit, is there anything else I should buy? I have a Lund Ngauge and will probably have them send me a revised tune to get me started if one is not included.

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