What's In DFB's Cabinet?

[DFB5.0]

For anyone wanting to kill a few minutes, take a look at the P&S website and the extensive range of products they offer, I guarantee you will see products you never knew existed from them.

P&S Detail Products – P & S Detail Products

P&S were originally geared up to supply the detailing industry with bulk quantity products. Levi from The Rag Company being from a high-volume detailing background, he brought the brand into their store and its since gone on to be a big player in the pro-sumer space. This explains why some P&S products hit a bullseye, and some are thoroughly underwhelming. Products like Pearl are in the later camp in that they do a job, just without any frills.

P&S Must Haves -

Paint Gloss - I like this because its so easy to use, versatile and smells amazing.

Brake Buster - I've tried other similar products, but BB nails it across the board.

Xpress - A great interior cleaner that is completely safe across all surfaces and leaves no residue.

Clarity Creme - An obscure choice, but it works so well.

Bead Maker - I know it can be a diva to work with, but I love the look and feel it brings, and the scent.

Swift - A new product, one that strikes a nice balance for interiors, I like it on rubber floor mats too.

Absolute - Some new competitors have overtaken it, but I still enjoy this product.

True Vue - Nothing special here, just a great glass cleaner that works!

Rags To Riches - The best of its type.

Rehab - Haven't used, but apparently very good.

The P&S good but not great -

Paint Coating Surface Prep
Defender
Bug Off
Undressed
Shine All
Radiance
Frostbite

The P&S Avoid -

Pearl
Any of the scent range
Epic
Dream Maker (hate the stuff)

That's only scratching the surface, but those are the ones I have used.

Sponsored

 

[larr12]

P&S Swift on rubber mats...didnt think about that. Im gonna try it today.

 

[Evolvd]

I'm guessing you were watching the Day-4 OG Sema coverage that featured Bob Phillips talking up Defender?

You caught me lol. I’ve learned to trust but verify

 

[skinnyb]

For anyone wanting to kill a few minutes, take a look at the P&S website and the extensive range of products they offer, I guarantee you will see products you never knew existed from them.

P&S Detail Products – P & S Detail Products

P&S were originally geared up to supply the detailing industry with bulk quantity products. Levi from The Rag Company being from a high-volume detailing background, he brought the brand into their store and its since gone on to be a big player in the pro-sumer space. This explains why some P&S products hit a bullseye, and some are thoroughly underwhelming. Products like Pearl are in the later camp in that they do a job, just without any frills.

P&S Must Haves -

Paint Gloss - I like this because its so easy to use, versatile and smells amazing.

Brake Buster - I've tried other similar products, but BB nails it across the board.

Xpress - A great interior cleaner that is completely safe across all surfaces and leaves no residue.

Clarity Creme - An obscure choice, but it works so well.

Bead Maker - I know it can be a diva to work with, but I love the look and feel it brings, and the scent.

Swift - A new product, one that strikes a nice balance for interiors, I like it on rubber floor mats too.

Absolute - Some new competitors have overtaken it, but I still enjoy this product.

True Vue - Nothing special here, just a great glass cleaner that works!

Rags To Riches - The best of its type.

Rehab - Haven't used, but apparently very good.

The P&S good but not great -

Paint Coating Surface Prep
Defender
Bug Off
Undressed
Shine All
Radiance
Frostbite

The P&S Avoid -

Pearl
Any of the scent range
Epic
Dream Maker (hate the stuff)

That's only scratching the surface, but those are the ones I have used.

I agree on Dream Maker, Epic and Pearl. Truly awful... As I have said, Beadmaker is nice but newer products have overtaken it especially in the ease of use segment. I LOVE True Vue, Undressed is OK I agree.. Those are the ones I have used personally... Brake Buster is pretty good, a great all rounder. I like you have started putting neat in my cheap foam canon. Makes truly impressive foam and works great on well maintained wheels and tires. Express and swift were suprises for me, work really well..

 

[skinnyb]

24 hours later after being inside to avoid a few rain showers in the area. It hurt my heart to leave my Mach 1 sitting outside overnight . I think they turned out pretty well for wheels that have 100K miles on them, and have endured questionable washing practices a few times over the close to 3 years I have owned them We will see how well NV Wheel holds up, as much as I drive will know soon...

 

[GT 550]

What?! I didn't get a mint with my order. Cheated!

Were you prepared to pay the extra $70 freight? No you were not.

 

[50ALM]

Another detailing YouTuber bringing out his own brand, and starting with a pressure washer.

Also being distributed through the House of Rags.

 

[DFB5.0]

Another detailing YouTuber bringing out his own brand, and starting with a pressure washer.

Also being distributed through the House of Rags.

Oh good lord, I'm out!

 

[DFB5.0]

Audio!

I can't drive this car at the moment, but I can sure talk about it!

Before getting started, I’ve always had a thing for audio systems. As a kid, I was given a JVC boom box that my father won in a competition. This was in the days where having dual cassette decks were the norm and CD’s were a luxury. I loved that thing to death. My father also had a killer NAD setup with Bose speakers and a giant ported subwoofer, this had a massive separate amplifier, a then extremely expensive CD player unit and finally a turntable for him to play his huge collection of vinyl from the 70’s and 80’s. At secondary school, my role in the yearly productions was centered around the sound department, so pro-level speakers, cables and microphones. Also in my teens, for my birthday I was then given a killer Panasonic system with dual positional speakers that had integrated subwoofers. That Panasonic was only recently replaced with a set of PSB AM5 powered bookshelf speakers and a SVS sealed subwoofer, driven from a Bluesound Node DAC.

In cars though, I’ve never really been into modifying audio systems. I guess I see it as quite invasive, removing door panels and poking around with wires never appealed to me. So, my car audio has always centered around what the car came with. Some of those have been excellent, some abysmal, more on that later.

It’s safe to say that every V8 Mustang comes with two audio systems. The first is fitted within the cabin, the second is thumping away under the hood and pumping out the back. In a car like this with such an enticing intake and exhaust note, it could be forgiven if Ford didn’t put any effort into the cabin audio system. And in actual fact, I rarely pump up the sound in my “fun” cars, the Ranger on the way to and from work is a different story. So, while I covered the audio system a little in a previous post, lets dive deeper here. The under-hood sound system, well, I’m saving that for later because it's one of the key driving factors for me staying with a Mustang.

In the early FM S550 Mustang’s, the Shaker sound system didn’t get the subwoofer in Australia. Up until now, I had no idea why, but it did later appear on the 2018+ FN models. The Shaker system was fitted to both EcoBoost and GT models and had 9 speakers driven by a separate amplifier. Adjustments were made via the 8-inch colour touchscreen, but Ford also included physical buttons below the touchscreen. Oh, and it had a CD player as well………….remember those?

Researching this post, it seems there were a few different systems offered on S550. There was a basic 9-speaker “Premium” system, a Shaker with 9-speakers and no sub, and Shaker Pro with 12-speakers and the subwoofer, which the later 2018+ FN models got.

In any case, the mid-spec Shaker system on my car had plenty of volume, but it didn’t really have the depth of sound you’d hope for, no doubt because of the missing subwoofer. As I said earlier, with a Borla exhaust fitted, I wasn’t pumping music in that car much, it was mostly windows down and my right foot controlling the volume.



One thing I noticed while playing around with the sound settings on that car was the following graphic………………

Not doing a specific RHD image here means some confusion. Do you adjust for the “driver” pictured on the screen, or the physical location of the driver on a RHD car? I never did figure that out.

For S650, there are again different audio levels. The base Premium system has 9-speakers and an amplifier. However, all Australian spec Mustang’s (EcoBoost, GT and Darkhorse) get the top spec system fitted as standard, it’s an otherwise $995 option in the US. Ford and Bang & Olufsen have been working together for several years now, from what I can gather, the Mustang got a B&O system at some point in 2020.

https://corporate.bang-olufsen.com/en/partners/automotive/ford/mustang
https://assets.ctfassets.net/8cd2cs...f99e9e12d8ff8b71f2/B_O_Mustang_English_US.pdf



Now, I’m under no illusion that this B&O system is the be all and end all. Quite often partnerships like this are only surface level, the car company ends up simply paying a license fee for some basic collaboration and to put a brand name audio in the brochures. So, read the following with a grain of salt. This information comes from B&O back in 2020, but I would be surprised if things have changed since then considering the amount of carry over on S650.

Pulse-raising performance, passionate precision -
Your heart beating in your ears won’t be the only thing you can hear over the roar of the engine with the B&O Sound System for the Ford Mustang. The exhilarating premium audio performance is tailor made for the track and specifically designed for the unique acoustic environment inside the Ford Mustang. A soul-stirring 12-speaker system powered by 900 watts delivers a passionate and powerful audio performance precisely engineered to match the Mustang’s unique sound profile. Feel every note as you tear up every mile with the B&O Sound System for Ford Mustang.

Sound that conquers the curves -
The racing-inspired profile and low driver and passenger positions inside the Ford Mustang create an acoustic environment as noteworthy and unique as the legendary muscle car itself. The B&O Sound System has been painstakingly built and expertly tuned to hug every subtle curve inside of the cabin. Unique 3-way speakers in the doors deliver even more nuanced and multi-dimensional sound, so whether on the road or racetrack your sound experience remains remarkable.

Heart-pounding harmony -
Some cars are made to be silent, and some cars are made to roar. Hearing and feeling the roar of the Ford Mustang is a critical part of every thrilling drive. The sophisticated tuning of the B&O Sound System doesn’t compete with the engine, it perfectly matches the acoustic signature of the Ford Mustang for precise and powerful audio reproduction. So having a premium sound system and a heart-pounding engine in the Ford Mustang isn’t an either/or, but a “yes, and yes.”

Seamless sound from 0-60mph, or standing still -
Serious speed and superior sound can sometimes be at odds. That’s why the tuning of the B&O Sound System has been put through its paces. Expert acousticians, many who are also practicing musicians, do hundreds of hours of static and dynamic testing to ensure that no matter the driving conditions, the audio performance remains purity in motion.

Serious Power -
The premium B&O Sound System features 12 speakers including 4 x 170mm woofers and a trunk mounted subwoofer delivering incredible low frequency performance powered by an impressive 900 watts. With 3-way speakers in the doors and audio tuning specific to the demands of the Ford Mustang, the B&O Sound System delivers unique power and passion

Sophisticated and seamless design -
Derived from the iconic product design of the Bang & Olufsen products for the home, the design of the B&O Sound System is a blend of sleek styling and Scandinavian minimalism. The linear pattern on speaker grilles supports acoustic transparency and the lateral fading helps the speaker grilles blend seamlessly with the interior of the Ford Mustang.

So, long story short, the Bang & Olufsen system in the Mustang has a separate amplifier, 12 speakers (which includes 4 small woofers) and larger separate subwoofer mounted in the boot.
Giving it a workout last week, I can confirm that this B&O system is very good and a marked improvement over the Shaker in my S550. There is plenty of volume headroom, the subwoofer adding some much-needed depth when things get thumping. Compared to the Shaker, there is no need to crank the bass settings either.

Other than volume knob and the audio controls on the steering wheel, all adjustments are made by the central display screen. To access adjustments, you can either tap the Sound tab from the audio page, or via the Settings tab accessed from the home page.

And look! They figured out RHD orientation!

So, how does this Bang & Olufsen system compare to the other cars in my past and present fleet? For the most part, all of my cars have had the factory upgrade audio systems (where available).

My first car, an 2001 AU III Fairmont had the 6-speaker Prestige system, which was more than adequate. The Prestige part mainly referenced the inclusion of two A-pillar mounted tweeters and a 6-stack in-dash CD player. Fancy! To much embarrassment, I had to have that head unit removed and repaired. When I went back to have it re-installed, the guy sniggered at the Kylie Minogue CD they extracted from it. Bastard!

That car was replaced by the 2008 Falcon XR6. The Premium Sound system was available with the Luxury Pack, but I didn’t like the plain looking wheels and the grey ICC panel that came with the Lux pack, so I ordered Premium Sound as a standalone option. For FG, this meant 8-speakers, a separate 150-watt amplifier and a parcel shelf mounted subwoofer for a total 262-watts. Premium Sound also included a 6-stack CD player and the 8-inch colour screen. Compared to what I had experienced till thar point, this would be the best car audio I had experienced. The sub made a huge difference over the Prestige system in my old car. My only screw up here was not also optioning the Tech Pack for the iPod (remember those) and Bluetooth integration.

You can actually chart a downward line in relation to audio quality (or lack thereof) in Falcon’s, it getting worse and worse with each model change. For that reason, I can safely say that the Premium Sound in my 2002 T3 TS50 was actually a better system despite being older than the FG. Till now, that was the best sound system I ever had in a car. It had fantastic bass potential, great clarity and plenty of volume headroom. This system had 250-watts total, with 11 speakers, a separate amplifier and subwoofer, a “computer-controlled tuner” (ooooh), a 6-stack in-dash CD player, a “logic controlled” cassette deck and………..wait for it………………….a power antenna!

For the FGX in 2014, Ford really pulled every cent they could out of the audio system. Being the flagship, the XR8 came standard with “Premium Sound” and the then new Sync 2 system with a colour touchscreen and DAB capability. The 6-stack CD player was removed though. Despite the specs reading the same as FG, 9 speakers/150-watt amplifier & subwoofer, something had clearly changed off page and out of sight. I have never heard a worse sounding car audio system, the lack of volume, no bass headroom and the high amount of background static was and is extremely disappointing. The result is a muddy sound profile with no clarity…………..it’s probably the worst part of the car. Lucky the big instrument under the hood makes up for it.

When the Jaguar arrived, I was keen to sample the Meridian system that came with the car. With 11-speakers, 380-watts and an 8-inch colour touchscreen, on paper it sounds impressive. But despite offering great volume, it lacks punch and bass headroom. Apparently, this setup includes a subwoofer, but it’s hard to detect, maybe its more subtly integrated than the obvious thumpa-thumpa of what the Falcon systems do? It would seem there was a higher spec audio offered, called Meridian's Digital Surround Sound System. This was offered in conjunction with the higher-spec InControl Touch Pro package and 10.2-inch touchscreen. In any case, I have to say that I wasn’t bowled over by this Meridian system.

The two-speaker setup on my 2010 PK Ranger was understandably poor. On my current PX MK II Ranger, the 4-speakers do a great job in this small cabin. It easily out-punches the XR8 for volume, bass and clarity. Who would have guessed that?

And so, the B&O system sits towards the top of the charts here. The XR6 probably has a little more punch, but the B&O has more clarity at higher volumes. Not to mention having modern wireless audio streaming............... no aux cords or CD players required here. In third would be the Meridian, then the Ranger, the XR8 a distant last place. If I was including past cars too, the B&O would still sit at the top, but the T3 TS50 would easily take second and then third to the FG XR6.

I just wish I could stop talking (typing) about this thing and get out drive it instead.

 

[DFB5.0]

Having been parked in front of the TV for days now, I decided to make use of that time and track down an oil-air-separator catch can for the S650. While there are a various aftermarket catch cans on the market, I wanted the Ford Performance version, which I had installed on the S550. Why? Because it melts into the background and looks like it left the factory like that.

I would have ordered one of these months ago, but I couldn't find them locally. I toyed with ordering one from a US-based vendor and sucking up the shipping cost, but once currency converted, I'd be looking at import duty as well. I then contacted Herrod Performance, being the Ford Performance distributor in Australia, surely they would be offering them soon. I got an almost instant reply from Rob himself on Sunday explaining that they had the S650 versions in stock, but they hadn't uploaded them to the website. Geez, you can't sell something if no one can find it! The part was loaded this morning and, surprise surprise, it was only marginally cheaper than importing it from the states myself. I'm not even going to bother linking to that website.

Someone then put me onto another Australian company that sells them, and they offered it at up $100 less than Herrod. Being the Ford Performance distributor, you'd expect Herrod to have a pricing advantage. In any case, it looks like I got the last one......................

https://www.themancavegarage.com.au...rue&sa=false&sbp=false&q=false&category_id=57

Now, the price on the S650 version is significantly more as they now include catch cans and hoses for both cylinder banks. For S550, most only fitted the left hand bank.

 

[GT 550]

the price on the S650 version is significantly more

Holy expensive plastic !!!

....wait for it………………….a power antenna!

Yessssss. Uber cool. I recall installing one in an XB coupe, couldn't stop playing with it. Oh the joy. It became part of the start up ritual.

 

[Evolvd]

Another detailing YouTuber bringing out his own brand, and starting with a pressure washer.

Also being distributed through the House of Rags.

Oh so a copy of the Active 2.0?

 

[skinnyb]

Audio!

I can't drive this car at the moment, but I can sure talk about it!

Before getting started, I’ve always had a thing for audio systems. As a kid, I was given a JVC boom box that my father won in a competition. This was in the days where having dual cassette decks were the norm and CD’s were a luxury. I loved that thing to death. My father also had a killer NAD setup with Bose speakers and a giant ported subwoofer, this had a massive separate amplifier, a then extremely expensive CD player unit and finally a turntable for him to play his huge collection of vinyl from the 70’s and 80’s. At secondary school, my role in the yearly productions was centered around the sound department, so pro-level speakers, cables and microphones. Also in my teens, for my birthday I was then given a killer Panasonic system with dual positional speakers that had integrated subwoofers. That Panasonic was only recently replaced with a set of PSB AM5 powered bookshelf speakers and a SVS sealed subwoofer, driven from a Bluesound Node DAC.

In cars though, I’ve never really been into modifying audio systems. I guess I see it as quite invasive, removing door panels and poking around with wires never appealed to me. So, my car audio has always centered around what the car came with. Some of those have been excellent, some abysmal, more on that later.

It’s safe to say that every V8 Mustang comes with two audio systems. The first is fitted within the cabin, the second is thumping away under the hood and pumping out the back. In a car like this with such an enticing intake and exhaust note, it could be forgiven if Ford didn’t put any effort into the cabin audio system. And in actual fact, I rarely pump up the sound in my “fun” cars, the Ranger on the way to and from work is a different story. So, while I covered the audio system a little in a previous post, lets dive deeper here. The under-hood sound system, well, I’m saving that for later because it's one of the key driving factors for me staying with a Mustang.

In the early FM S550 Mustang’s, the Shaker sound system didn’t get the subwoofer in Australia. Up until now, I had no idea why, but it did later appear on the 2018+ FN models. The Shaker system was fitted to both EcoBoost and GT models and had 9 speakers driven by a separate amplifier. Adjustments were made via the 8-inch colour touchscreen, but Ford also included physical buttons below the touchscreen. Oh, and it had a CD player as well………….remember those?

Researching this post, it seems there were a few different systems offered on S550. There was a basic 9-speaker “Premium” system, a Shaker with 9-speakers and no sub, and Shaker Pro with 12-speakers and the subwoofer, which the later 2018+ FN models got.

In any case, the mid-spec Shaker system on my car had plenty of volume, but it didn’t really have the depth of sound you’d hope for, no doubt because of the missing subwoofer. As I said earlier, with a Borla exhaust fitted, I wasn’t pumping music in that car much, it was mostly windows down and my right foot controlling the volume.



One thing I noticed while playing around with the sound settings on that car was the following graphic………………

Not doing a specific RHD image here means some confusion. Do you adjust for the “driver” pictured on the screen, or the physical location of the driver on a RHD car? I never did figure that out.

For S650, there are again different audio levels. The base Premium system has 9-speakers and an amplifier. However, all Australian spec Mustang’s (EcoBoost, GT and Darkhorse) get the top spec system fitted as standard, it’s an otherwise $995 option in the US. Ford and Bang & Olufsen have been working together for several years now, from what I can gather, the Mustang got a B&O system at some point in 2020.

https://corporate.bang-olufsen.com/en/partners/automotive/ford/mustang
https://assets.ctfassets.net/8cd2cs...f99e9e12d8ff8b71f2/B_O_Mustang_English_US.pdf



Now, I’m under no illusion that this B&O system is the be all and end all. Quite often partnerships like this are only surface level, the car company ends up simply paying a license fee for some basic collaboration and to put a brand name audio in the brochures. So, read the following with a grain of salt. This information comes from B&O back in 2020, but I would be surprised if things have changed since then considering the amount of carry over on S650.



So, long story short, the Bang & Olufsen system in the Mustang has a separate amplifier, 12 speakers (which includes 4 small woofers) and larger separate subwoofer mounted in the boot.
Giving it a workout last week, I can confirm that this B&O system is very good and a marked improvement over the Shaker in my S550. There is plenty of volume headroom, the subwoofer adding some much-needed depth when things get thumping. Compared to the Shaker, there is no need to crank the bass settings either.

Other than volume knob and the audio controls on the steering wheel, all adjustments are made by the central display screen. To access adjustments, you can either tap the Sound tab from the audio page, or via the Settings tab accessed from the home page.

And look! They figured out RHD orientation!

So, how does this Bang & Olufsen system compare to the other cars in my past and present fleet? For the most part, all of my cars have had the factory upgrade audio systems (where available).

My first car, an 2001 AU III Fairmont had the 6-speaker Prestige system, which was more than adequate. The Prestige part mainly referenced the inclusion of two A-pillar mounted tweeters and a 6-stack in-dash CD player. Fancy! To much embarrassment, I had to have that head unit removed and repaired. When I went back to have it re-installed, the guy sniggered at the Kylie Minogue CD they extracted from it. Bastard!

That car was replaced by the 2008 Falcon XR6. The Premium Sound system was available with the Luxury Pack, but I didn’t like the plain looking wheels and the grey ICC panel that came with the Lux pack, so I ordered Premium Sound as a standalone option. For FG, this meant 8-speakers, a separate 150-watt amplifier and a parcel shelf mounted subwoofer for a total 262-watts. Premium Sound also included a 6-stack CD player and the 8-inch colour screen. Compared to what I had experienced till thar point, this would be the best car audio I had experienced. The sub made a huge difference over the Prestige system in my old car. My only screw up here was not also optioning the Tech Pack for the iPod (remember those) and Bluetooth integration.

You can actually chart a downward line in relation to audio quality (or lack thereof) in Falcon’s, it getting worse and worse with each model change. For that reason, I can safely say that the Premium Sound in my 2002 T3 TS50 was actually a better system despite being older than the FG. Till now, that was the best sound system I ever had in a car. It had fantastic bass potential, great clarity and plenty of volume headroom. This system had 250-watts total, with 11 speakers, a separate amplifier and subwoofer, a “computer-controlled tuner” (ooooh), a 6-stack in-dash CD player, a “logic controlled” cassette deck and………..wait for it………………….a power antenna!

For the FGX in 2014, Ford really pulled every cent they could out of the audio system. Being the flagship, the XR8 came standard with “Premium Sound” and the then new Sync 2 system with a colour touchscreen and DAB capability. The 6-stack CD player was removed though. Despite the specs reading the same as FG, 9 speakers/150-watt amplifier & subwoofer, something had clearly changed off page and out of sight. I have never heard a worse sounding car audio system, the lack of volume, no bass headroom and the high amount of background static was and is extremely disappointing. The result is a muddy sound profile with no clarity…………..it’s probably the worst part of the car. Lucky the big instrument under the hood makes up for it.

When the Jaguar arrived, I was keen to sample the Meridian system that came with the car. With 11-speakers, 380-watts and an 8-inch colour touchscreen, on paper it sounds impressive. But despite offering great volume, it lacks punch and bass headroom. Apparently, this setup includes a subwoofer, but it’s hard to detect, maybe its more subtly integrated than the obvious thumpa-thumpa of what the Falcon systems do? It would seem there was a higher spec audio offered, called Meridian's Digital Surround Sound System. This was offered in conjunction with the higher-spec InControl Touch Pro package and 10.2-inch touchscreen. In any case, I have to say that I wasn’t bowled over by this Meridian system.

The two-speaker setup on my 2010 PK Ranger was understandably poor. On my current PX MK II Ranger, the 4-speakers do a great job in this small cabin. It easily out-punches the XR8 for volume, bass and clarity. Who would have guessed that?

And so, the B&O system sits towards the top of the charts here. The XR6 probably has a little more punch, but the B&O has more clarity at higher volumes. Not to mention having modern wireless audio streaming............... no aux cords or CD players required here. In third would be the Meridian, then the Ranger, the XR8 a distant last place. If I was including past cars too, the B&O would still sit at the top, but the T3 TS50 would easily take second and then third to the FG XR6.

I just wish I could stop talking (typing) about this thing and get out drive it instead.

I had the 9 speaker in my 22 GT, and the 12 speaker B&O in my Mach 1. Definitely can tell the difference. Sounds very clear and packs a punch without being muddy...

 

[DFB5.0]

Yessssss. Uber cool. I recall installing one in an XB coupe, couldn't stop playing with it. Oh the joy. It became part of the start up ritual.

My Fairmont had it too. There was a button on the dash that you could make it go higher or half mast. I don't know, I always found it tacky.

 

[GT 550]

There was a button on the dash that you could make it go higher or half mast.

If you've got it flaunt it. Wonder what they were thinking...higher Vmax maybe

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