lugbolt
Well-Known Member
I'm going to share my take on EV vs gas. Keeping in mind that I'm in the EV AND gas repair industy, just not Ford-related.
EV IS in fact being forced. Look at California; and typically what California does is followed by the rest of the USA. Maybe not 100% the same, but it is followed. By 2035, California is banning the sale of new gasoline powered cars (I didn't look at the regulation, maybe they excluded diesel??). So with current tech, this leaves us with EV, hydrogen, or perhaps some kind of alternative fueled vehicle(s), EV seems to be what they're pushing based on the many credits and such that they offer. Gas cars aren't going away, but there's speculation that they will be taxed heavily--meaning "they" want them gone via making them prohibitively expensive to own/maintain/repair. It's actually starting to happen already. BUT that doesn't mean that EV is the way of the future, EV carries their own sets of problems, and lots of them.
--Lack of infrastructure (they passed legislation to address this, albeit it was a very small amount of money in the grand scheme of things that need to be done).
--Lack of supplies to make them (chips, batteries, etc)--most of the supplies come from overseas, which doesn't help US manufacturing all that much. Legislation is in the works to "bring manufacturing back (in the case of chips) but that does not solve the problem, it makes it more expensive.
--lack of motivation for our 'society of convenience' to own them considering all of the negatives of owning an EV. I'll get into this a little more in a minute
--EV has a shorter range than gas (I don't care who says what, the 3 legged dog statement applies here)-they do have a shorter range as a whole.
--They are expensive. The way that "they" are going about this is to force more regulation on gas cars, that make them more and more expensive. So your $95,000 GT500, $80,000 Bronco, $85,000 F-250's, $100,000 F-350, etc--all look "good" in comparison to a $75,000 EV...
--Fewer choices with EV cars, and I believe that's going to change.
So lets talk about EV. As a technician who works on them almost daily, I work closely with the public relating to them. MOST people that buy them are after the whole "drive green" thing as well as they think that they're saving money by not having to buy fuel. The reality is that they're trading one set of issues with another. One lady bought a new one and traded in a gas car that was low mileage and completely paid for (no payments). Her insurance went up, taxes went up, she took on a payment, but hey, don't say I didn't try to tell her. I did in fact advise her that financially in her situation, it made no sense unless she has a few million in cash to 'play with' (and the credit app did not show that, FAR from it actually). But what got her was all of the social and mainstream media constantly shoving it down her (and our) throats that EV is being pushed (Forced?). She caved and bought one. So then as a service tech I have to introduce myself to her and explain a few things. First, think of your new EV this way. You have to "fill it up" every day, and if you don't have a dedicated way to fill it (dedicated charging post), you really should think about getting one as the slow charging may not suffice. Secondly the day you buy it, the vehicle can be thought of as having a 15 gallon fuel tank. Every day from now on, your fuel tank will get smaller (battery will lose capacity over time). This is completely normal. Your battery pack has a 10 year/100,000 mile limited warranty, and I suggest reading the warranty statement in full, or hire an attorney to read it for you so you know what to expect. In short, it means that if it fails prematurely due to a manufacturing defect, they will replace it. It DOES NOT mean that normal degradation is going to get you a free battery, in fact after many years of ownership when the battery normally degrades, you'll have to replace it--and they are expensive. Not only is it expensive but the supplier who we use charges us $6 per pound to dispose of the old one, which we pass on to all customers. People don't understand that, they think of a 50lb car battery, $6 a pound, big deal that's $300. "I can afford that". An EV battery can be 500-1000 lbs, times $6/lb. It adds additional cost to your replacement, then add in labor charges. I have seen some get upward of $20,000 in today's market costs. That is a real cost born by real customers. At that cost, some have decided not to repair the vehicle and some have abandoned them altogether and just bought new ones. Abaondoned cars can't have much done with them other than charge/sue the owner for the costs involved, then try to get ownership of it, then they might be able to fix/sell or just crush it--but not until ownership is transferred (Titling nightmares....). yes this has happened. That in itself brings into question, where you gonna store junked EV's? All the yards around here won't take them because of liability of the batteries, and $6/lb to dispose of the batteries eats into their costs, which decreases how much they make on the parts they sell from the car + crush value, compared with the escalating costs of keeping the doors open (insurance is a HUGE deal here...).
Lack of infrastructure. It takes a while to charge EV's on normal current. If you have access to a fast charger, which there are zero of them in this area (100 mi radius), it can take up to 30-40 minutes for a charge. But some EV manufacturers don't recommend doing a lot of fast charging as it can degrade the battery quicker than normal, in fact the ECU tracks it as I understand and that information can be stored then read by the repair facility. How they use that info is up to them--and the manufacturer (warranty dept?). So that leaves your normal charging. Imagine a few million cars all plugged into the house all at the same time. Power plants are going to have to make changes for more generation capacity, which they do not currently have. In our case our power comes from the nuke plant. They're looking at building a third reactor, which also means they're going to have to acquire the land to do it, which also means forcing people out of their homes among many other potential issues. Then they're gonna have to incrase the number and sizes of the wiring from the gen plant to the masses, a HUGE undertaking (and quite expensive). Who's gonna pay for all that? The government has passed legislation that "gives" I think $14B to implement some of this, but that amount of money is tiny in the grand scheme of things. Also--on power generation, since they want fossil fuel to disappear, they want more solar, wind, and hydro plants to be "built". Solar only works when the sun's out, so at night they're not charging. Wind only works when/where the wind blows and it don't blow here, right now the wind speed is at exactly zero and it is like this from May through October. Then the only time it blows is when it's cold, rainy, or in a tornado. Seriously, I am no joking. I realize that other areas don't have this kind of weather. Secondly on wind power, turbines need maintenance so putting them way out to sea, although might seem like a good idea, is going to cost a lot of money to maintain/repair them. Not even mentioning the impact that they create on the environment, they don't really directly pollute (until they fall into miles deep water, or burn up) but again, they are simply trading one set of problems for another. Hydro? Give me a break. It only works at dams that are in a very special set of circumstances, you can't just dam up any river or creek and expect to generate enough electricity to feed "that" many houses/cars/apartments. There is one up the road built in 1969, 200 foot from the normal lake level to the normal river level, 2 turbines, generating 88MW total. It is a huge dam, it totally changed the landscape (TOTALLY!!), and it only works when the river (now lake) feeding it is at/above a certain level-once it gets low like it is right now, it doesn't gen much. It can't. It can run the lake dry and flood downstream. And, it totally changed the environment downstream, as the water coming through the turbines is about 50 degrees F where the lake surface temp might be in the 90's like it is right now. Tailwaters are cold, it's always foggy, and the cool water and lower air temps create a completely different climate. TOTALLY different! Above the dam (lake) is normal for this area; below is like a JUNGLE, because the cool water cools the air around it, moisture from the humidity condenses on all the trees' leaves, branches, drips to the ground, cools everything off, and plants and animals that are non-native to this are are becoming quite common. Some invasive.
Motivation to buy EV. Many of us don't want them, We know the inconveniences of owning/operating them. They are a little simpler in some ways, but much more complex in others--again we're trading one set of problems for another, meaning the entire country (society) will have to make the same changes, creating a huge economical potential, and destroying another. We ARE a society of convenience, we pay extra for things that are easier to get, hence the reason there's a convenience store on every corner. Yeah we can just pop in and grab a can of dew or whatever, and be gone in 1 minute. Sonic drive in, convenience. The food sucks, the service sucks, but we don't even have to get out of our cars to get food, and that's the only reason they're still around. EV? Less convenient because every day after we get off work we gotta remember to go plug the car in. What if ya forget? You get halfway to work, and you ain't got enough juice to climb the hill, so you're stuck. Call a tow truck, pay 'em $250 (Current ev tow rate up to 15 miles radius here), tow it back to the house so you can charge. Call in work because you couldn't make it. That's gonna hurt your credibility at work, and if you have a corporate job where you're just a number? You may not have a job tomorrow depending on what mood the boss is in.
As you can see there are hundreds of challenges we're facing with EV.
Another....range. Or lack of it. Sure so-and-such says you can go 500 miles on a charge. BUT what they don't tell you (again, experience speaking) is that 500 miles is theoretical and under a set of conditions that do not exist in this area. We got hills. It gets hot. It rains. It snows, it gets cold. So if your range is under "optimal conditions", those conditions that are sub-optimal degrade your range. Say you want to go on vacation. You plan months ahead of time, let's say it's a 600 mile drive one way. You're looking for charging stations. There's maybe 4 of them along the way and none are "fast chargers". So then you have to look at a motel stay for the night while your car charges. Adds cost and time. You get there, one place to charge, 9 miles away from your motel or beachfront condo, so what do you do? Rent a bike? Uber? Adds cost and time. If you have a week of vacation time, you will eat up 4 days of it in travel, leaving you with 1 or 2 maybe 3 if you're lucky to actually vacate. Back on range subject, if you have to climb hills, range will drop based on vehicle load. If you haul more weight (wife, kids, etc) range will drop. The a/c is a heat pump that runs continually to keep the car cool in the summer, that also degrades range. Wind? Your foot is into the "throttle" a little more to overcome a headwind, also degrades range. Rainwater on the road decreases range via causing more rolling resistance. Cold air degrades range. Hot air degrades range. So what's the option? You still have to own a gas car for longer trips.
I'll use my own economic example. I have zero debt. I own my house. I own my truck and my Mustang; although both are mostly broken at the moment (won't go there right now....). So the government is saying by 2035 I cannot buy a gas car. So that leaves me with options. One, keep fixing my oil burners, which I believe they'll also limit somehow (and the market will also limit my ability to do so), or go into debt to buy a new EV which has it's limitations. I'm not going into debt. I've been debt free since 2009. I live on pennies, and I make pennies. For those that think I'm made of millions, think about this: I work for $15.52/hr, my bills are taxes, insurance, retirement, and all that...food, fuel, etc. The budget at the end of the month? I'm lucky to have $180 left and if it is left, it goes into savings for a rainy day fund, of which currently is $9,400. Barely enough to live on for 6 months. So I cannot afford a $900/mo car payment and I refuse to. If they want me to go into debt for an EV, they're gonna have to figure out a way to cancel my EV debt the same way they've done with college debt. That's the only way. Until then, I'll keep my multi-colored body panel old oil burners, and I'll keep fixing them. Y'all think it's funny but it's not that funny when you feel pressured to go into a debt that you simply cannot afford.
EV IS in fact being forced. Look at California; and typically what California does is followed by the rest of the USA. Maybe not 100% the same, but it is followed. By 2035, California is banning the sale of new gasoline powered cars (I didn't look at the regulation, maybe they excluded diesel??). So with current tech, this leaves us with EV, hydrogen, or perhaps some kind of alternative fueled vehicle(s), EV seems to be what they're pushing based on the many credits and such that they offer. Gas cars aren't going away, but there's speculation that they will be taxed heavily--meaning "they" want them gone via making them prohibitively expensive to own/maintain/repair. It's actually starting to happen already. BUT that doesn't mean that EV is the way of the future, EV carries their own sets of problems, and lots of them.
--Lack of infrastructure (they passed legislation to address this, albeit it was a very small amount of money in the grand scheme of things that need to be done).
--Lack of supplies to make them (chips, batteries, etc)--most of the supplies come from overseas, which doesn't help US manufacturing all that much. Legislation is in the works to "bring manufacturing back (in the case of chips) but that does not solve the problem, it makes it more expensive.
--lack of motivation for our 'society of convenience' to own them considering all of the negatives of owning an EV. I'll get into this a little more in a minute
--EV has a shorter range than gas (I don't care who says what, the 3 legged dog statement applies here)-they do have a shorter range as a whole.
--They are expensive. The way that "they" are going about this is to force more regulation on gas cars, that make them more and more expensive. So your $95,000 GT500, $80,000 Bronco, $85,000 F-250's, $100,000 F-350, etc--all look "good" in comparison to a $75,000 EV...
--Fewer choices with EV cars, and I believe that's going to change.
So lets talk about EV. As a technician who works on them almost daily, I work closely with the public relating to them. MOST people that buy them are after the whole "drive green" thing as well as they think that they're saving money by not having to buy fuel. The reality is that they're trading one set of issues with another. One lady bought a new one and traded in a gas car that was low mileage and completely paid for (no payments). Her insurance went up, taxes went up, she took on a payment, but hey, don't say I didn't try to tell her. I did in fact advise her that financially in her situation, it made no sense unless she has a few million in cash to 'play with' (and the credit app did not show that, FAR from it actually). But what got her was all of the social and mainstream media constantly shoving it down her (and our) throats that EV is being pushed (Forced?). She caved and bought one. So then as a service tech I have to introduce myself to her and explain a few things. First, think of your new EV this way. You have to "fill it up" every day, and if you don't have a dedicated way to fill it (dedicated charging post), you really should think about getting one as the slow charging may not suffice. Secondly the day you buy it, the vehicle can be thought of as having a 15 gallon fuel tank. Every day from now on, your fuel tank will get smaller (battery will lose capacity over time). This is completely normal. Your battery pack has a 10 year/100,000 mile limited warranty, and I suggest reading the warranty statement in full, or hire an attorney to read it for you so you know what to expect. In short, it means that if it fails prematurely due to a manufacturing defect, they will replace it. It DOES NOT mean that normal degradation is going to get you a free battery, in fact after many years of ownership when the battery normally degrades, you'll have to replace it--and they are expensive. Not only is it expensive but the supplier who we use charges us $6 per pound to dispose of the old one, which we pass on to all customers. People don't understand that, they think of a 50lb car battery, $6 a pound, big deal that's $300. "I can afford that". An EV battery can be 500-1000 lbs, times $6/lb. It adds additional cost to your replacement, then add in labor charges. I have seen some get upward of $20,000 in today's market costs. That is a real cost born by real customers. At that cost, some have decided not to repair the vehicle and some have abandoned them altogether and just bought new ones. Abaondoned cars can't have much done with them other than charge/sue the owner for the costs involved, then try to get ownership of it, then they might be able to fix/sell or just crush it--but not until ownership is transferred (Titling nightmares....). yes this has happened. That in itself brings into question, where you gonna store junked EV's? All the yards around here won't take them because of liability of the batteries, and $6/lb to dispose of the batteries eats into their costs, which decreases how much they make on the parts they sell from the car + crush value, compared with the escalating costs of keeping the doors open (insurance is a HUGE deal here...).
Lack of infrastructure. It takes a while to charge EV's on normal current. If you have access to a fast charger, which there are zero of them in this area (100 mi radius), it can take up to 30-40 minutes for a charge. But some EV manufacturers don't recommend doing a lot of fast charging as it can degrade the battery quicker than normal, in fact the ECU tracks it as I understand and that information can be stored then read by the repair facility. How they use that info is up to them--and the manufacturer (warranty dept?). So that leaves your normal charging. Imagine a few million cars all plugged into the house all at the same time. Power plants are going to have to make changes for more generation capacity, which they do not currently have. In our case our power comes from the nuke plant. They're looking at building a third reactor, which also means they're going to have to acquire the land to do it, which also means forcing people out of their homes among many other potential issues. Then they're gonna have to incrase the number and sizes of the wiring from the gen plant to the masses, a HUGE undertaking (and quite expensive). Who's gonna pay for all that? The government has passed legislation that "gives" I think $14B to implement some of this, but that amount of money is tiny in the grand scheme of things. Also--on power generation, since they want fossil fuel to disappear, they want more solar, wind, and hydro plants to be "built". Solar only works when the sun's out, so at night they're not charging. Wind only works when/where the wind blows and it don't blow here, right now the wind speed is at exactly zero and it is like this from May through October. Then the only time it blows is when it's cold, rainy, or in a tornado. Seriously, I am no joking. I realize that other areas don't have this kind of weather. Secondly on wind power, turbines need maintenance so putting them way out to sea, although might seem like a good idea, is going to cost a lot of money to maintain/repair them. Not even mentioning the impact that they create on the environment, they don't really directly pollute (until they fall into miles deep water, or burn up) but again, they are simply trading one set of problems for another. Hydro? Give me a break. It only works at dams that are in a very special set of circumstances, you can't just dam up any river or creek and expect to generate enough electricity to feed "that" many houses/cars/apartments. There is one up the road built in 1969, 200 foot from the normal lake level to the normal river level, 2 turbines, generating 88MW total. It is a huge dam, it totally changed the landscape (TOTALLY!!), and it only works when the river (now lake) feeding it is at/above a certain level-once it gets low like it is right now, it doesn't gen much. It can't. It can run the lake dry and flood downstream. And, it totally changed the environment downstream, as the water coming through the turbines is about 50 degrees F where the lake surface temp might be in the 90's like it is right now. Tailwaters are cold, it's always foggy, and the cool water and lower air temps create a completely different climate. TOTALLY different! Above the dam (lake) is normal for this area; below is like a JUNGLE, because the cool water cools the air around it, moisture from the humidity condenses on all the trees' leaves, branches, drips to the ground, cools everything off, and plants and animals that are non-native to this are are becoming quite common. Some invasive.
Motivation to buy EV. Many of us don't want them, We know the inconveniences of owning/operating them. They are a little simpler in some ways, but much more complex in others--again we're trading one set of problems for another, meaning the entire country (society) will have to make the same changes, creating a huge economical potential, and destroying another. We ARE a society of convenience, we pay extra for things that are easier to get, hence the reason there's a convenience store on every corner. Yeah we can just pop in and grab a can of dew or whatever, and be gone in 1 minute. Sonic drive in, convenience. The food sucks, the service sucks, but we don't even have to get out of our cars to get food, and that's the only reason they're still around. EV? Less convenient because every day after we get off work we gotta remember to go plug the car in. What if ya forget? You get halfway to work, and you ain't got enough juice to climb the hill, so you're stuck. Call a tow truck, pay 'em $250 (Current ev tow rate up to 15 miles radius here), tow it back to the house so you can charge. Call in work because you couldn't make it. That's gonna hurt your credibility at work, and if you have a corporate job where you're just a number? You may not have a job tomorrow depending on what mood the boss is in.
As you can see there are hundreds of challenges we're facing with EV.
Another....range. Or lack of it. Sure so-and-such says you can go 500 miles on a charge. BUT what they don't tell you (again, experience speaking) is that 500 miles is theoretical and under a set of conditions that do not exist in this area. We got hills. It gets hot. It rains. It snows, it gets cold. So if your range is under "optimal conditions", those conditions that are sub-optimal degrade your range. Say you want to go on vacation. You plan months ahead of time, let's say it's a 600 mile drive one way. You're looking for charging stations. There's maybe 4 of them along the way and none are "fast chargers". So then you have to look at a motel stay for the night while your car charges. Adds cost and time. You get there, one place to charge, 9 miles away from your motel or beachfront condo, so what do you do? Rent a bike? Uber? Adds cost and time. If you have a week of vacation time, you will eat up 4 days of it in travel, leaving you with 1 or 2 maybe 3 if you're lucky to actually vacate. Back on range subject, if you have to climb hills, range will drop based on vehicle load. If you haul more weight (wife, kids, etc) range will drop. The a/c is a heat pump that runs continually to keep the car cool in the summer, that also degrades range. Wind? Your foot is into the "throttle" a little more to overcome a headwind, also degrades range. Rainwater on the road decreases range via causing more rolling resistance. Cold air degrades range. Hot air degrades range. So what's the option? You still have to own a gas car for longer trips.
I'll use my own economic example. I have zero debt. I own my house. I own my truck and my Mustang; although both are mostly broken at the moment (won't go there right now....). So the government is saying by 2035 I cannot buy a gas car. So that leaves me with options. One, keep fixing my oil burners, which I believe they'll also limit somehow (and the market will also limit my ability to do so), or go into debt to buy a new EV which has it's limitations. I'm not going into debt. I've been debt free since 2009. I live on pennies, and I make pennies. For those that think I'm made of millions, think about this: I work for $15.52/hr, my bills are taxes, insurance, retirement, and all that...food, fuel, etc. The budget at the end of the month? I'm lucky to have $180 left and if it is left, it goes into savings for a rainy day fund, of which currently is $9,400. Barely enough to live on for 6 months. So I cannot afford a $900/mo car payment and I refuse to. If they want me to go into debt for an EV, they're gonna have to figure out a way to cancel my EV debt the same way they've done with college debt. That's the only way. Until then, I'll keep my multi-colored body panel old oil burners, and I'll keep fixing them. Y'all think it's funny but it's not that funny when you feel pressured to go into a debt that you simply cannot afford.
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It's just that many of us here in the US are so dead set on having their ICE V8's that they just refuse to see the need for alternatives. Don't get me wrong I want my V8 too. I just realize what the future is and understand that it is not changing.
