Tracking how do you get better?

[gone_n_60]

If it's car control you want to learn,
have you thought about karting?

Most F1 or top drivers in Europe start karting at a young age. It's competitive and very close racing with lots of seat time for little money compared to a full sized car.
...

Karting, LOL. This is Indy, the IMS is on my side of town and near it is an indoor Kart track. Me and two friends have a guys night out every now and then and kart around like crazy. This one has an upper deck track that when you get to the downhill turn your airborne for bit once you get the hang of the track. It's crazy fun but the karts are so easy to handle vs. what happens with my 4800 lb GT. It does help keep you in practice seems like.

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[Forestlump]

Karting, LOL. This is Indy, the IMS is on my side of town and near it is an indoor Kart track. Me and two friends have a guys night out every now and then and kart around like crazy. This one has an upper deck track that when you get to the downhill turn your airborne for bit once you get the hang of the track. It's crazy fun but the karts are so easy to handle vs. what happens with my 4800 lb GT. It does help keep you in practice seems like.

That's not karting! that's the honda lawn mower engine 6hp arrive and drive indoor things for team building or kids birthday parties.

Just about every F1 driver or race driver starts in karting. But 100 mph 35hp ones, on bigger out door only tracks not the type that you're imagining. Racing is an engineering challenge and it's not just learning the lines and driving theory, it's learning how to read the car and get the most from it plus what chassis changes to make depending on conditions to improve the lap time. That's what karting does for you but on a much cheaper scale and quicker than a full size car could.

Granted, the GT won't handle like a kart but the theory and skill is the same for improving efficiency and extracting more speed. That is what you're looking for isn't it? improving your skill level?

 

[gone_n_60]

That's not karting! that's the honda lawn mower engine 6hp arrive and drive indoor things for team building or kids birthday parties.

Just about every F1 driver or race driver starts in karting. But 100 mph 35hp ones, on bigger out door only tracks not the type that you're imagining. Racing is an engineering challenge and it's not just learning the lines and driving theory, it's learning how to read the car and get the most from it plus what chassis changes to make depending on conditions to improve the lap time. That's what karting does for you but on a much cheaper scale and quicker than a full size car could.

Granted, the GT won't handle like a kart but the theory and skill is the same for improving efficiency and extracting more speed. That is what you're looking for isn't it? improving your skill level?

Oh THAT karting! I really had to refine my google search for the competitive karting. Well... so that entails buying a $4000 to $7000 kart to race, then finding a place to store it, work on it, etc.. Then my limited track season has to split between kart racing and the Mustang track days. I really get it, from watching some videos and reading up on it that will make you a better driver/racer, I have to weigh (sadly) that I'm at a point in life I only X years left before time comes I won't be able/safe/allowed on a road course with my car. Life happens and aging slowly takes things away like or not, no matter how healthy you stay. I think putting investment in professional coaching even though expensive (locally or track schools like NCM has) will get me where I want to be. Out enjoying my GT not wearing out tires every two weekends, progressing into Advanced class and having helluva fun with everyone else.

 

[Forestlump]

You've answered your own question atleast and im sorry I wasn't any help to you.

 

[GTP]

I try to keep my goals realistic.

New tracks
I like to see if I can learn a new track well enough by the end of the first day, and then well enough to be charging around harder by the end of the second day. I went to Road America for the first time a couple weeks ago and like other new-to-me tracks, I was able to accomplish this in two days.

Precision and consistency
Once I am comfortable with the line and basic brake points, I try to work on threshold braking, consistent turn-in point, and trail braking.

Car control
I feel like I have a handle on controlling my car through slow and medium speed turns. But high speed turns have more risk, because 1) there is less warning of exceeding the limit, 2) I am not experienced and sensitive enough to know when I about to exceed the limit, and 3) the high speed means there is not enough time to save the car. Examples of a high speed curve is a 100+ mph kink. Those are so much fun, but I don't try to explore the true limit of traction through them.

A Road America example is that I worked up to 101mph through the back straight kink T10, but I did not want to attempt it any faster. Then the final session was cut short because, sure enough, a car wrecked there. Turn 10 has the reputation for the highest risk and "there is every color of car on the cement wall". BTW, I always ask which turn(s) have the highest risk of crashes when a track is new to me.

Car prep and track routine
I have constantly refined my car prep and getting faster at it. Things to add to my list of stuff to take to the track is finally almost done.

 

[Forestlump]

I try to keep my goals realistic.

New tracks
I like to see if I can learn a new track well enough by the end of the first day, and then well enough to be charging around harder by the end of the second day. I went to Road America for the first time a couple weeks ago and like other new-to-me tracks, I was able to accomplish this in two days.

Precision and consistency
Once I am comfortable with the line and basic brake points, I try to work on threshold braking, consistent turn-in point, and trail braking.

Car control
I feel like I have a handle on controlling my car through slow and medium speed turns. But high speed turns have more risk, because 1) there is less warning of exceeding the limit, 2) I am not experienced and sensitive enough to know when I about to exceed the limit, and 3) the high speed means there is not enough time to save the car. Examples of a high speed curve is a 100+ mph kink. Those are so much fun, but I don't try to explore the true limit of traction through them.

A Road America example is that I worked up to 101mph through the back straight kink T10, but I did not want to attempt it any faster. Then the final session was cut short because, sure enough, a car wrecked there. Turn 10 has the reputation for the highest risk and "there is every color of car on the cement wall". BTW, I always ask which turn(s) have the highest risk of crashes when a track is new to me.

Car prep and track routine
I have constantly refined my car prep and getting faster at it. Things to add to my list of stuff to take to the track is finally almost done.

I hear you, and agree completely. In the event of a crash, usually you also have to pay for track down time, repairs and recovery from the circuit. Then you've got to fix your car once home, this is why honing your skills on a kart that cost 5k is cheap racing, even if you completely bend the chassis worst case is 1000 dollars and they cause little track damage and noone has to drive the car home after.

Definetly, it's the high speed stuff that you need the skill for, to keep the car on its limits without making an error isn't within everyone's envelope and it takes time in the seat to be able to do that. There are no short cuts and you will make mistakes. Hopefully not too many expensive ones.

 

[Lorne34]

I am in a similar situation as you are, but I've come to the realization that I would rather drive fast, have fun and be consistent as possible without pushing myself or the car closer to 10/10.
At the end of the day we all want to drive or trailer our vehicle home in one piece. Every time I hear of a crash that involves someone pushing too hard (the kink at RA for example) it resets my expectations of what I really want to accomplish out there.
Define your goals and expectations for the experience.
If you are just looking to get better with your technique and improve your comfort level I would say find a track (one track, not multiple) near you and a instructor you are comfortable with and learn/memorize that track with the idea of working and improving on just a few things each time you are out.
Repetition is going to be the biggest thing. I have no visions of improving dramatically over a short period of time because I am only attending 2-3 track days a year.
I just purchased the Schroth Racing Harness as well. I agree with the other post regarding not being able to identify feedback when you are trying to brace your body on every turn. I have the comfort seats in mine and it's been a challenge to stay centered in the seat. The racing harness should help, but still allow me to quickly convert back to street/touring.
Cudos to you on taking your Vert on the track.
Best of luck and stay safe out there.

 

[OX1]

Limerock has skidpad school, but still "low" speed..........

https://www.facebook.com/NasaNorthE...ed-out-the-300-foot-skid-pa/1258254906305570/

 

[2morrow]

A lot of great advice in here. I personally went the driving school route and lean heavily into video recording every session and analyzing everything i do. It's rare that i don't improve lap time with every outing.

@NightmareMoon has a really good point about driving different cars. Rent a completely stock toyota camry V6 and take it to the track at novice or intermediate level. You'd be surprised how much fun you'll have, how much you learn, and surprisingly, how good the car is.

Also, take your s550 out to a rainy track day. Your brain will hurt afterwards with how much you take in. Same thing happened when I had to do laps in my F-150 during my SCCA tenure.

 

[Ewheels]

A lot of great advice in here. I personally went the driving school route and lean heavily into video recording every session and analyzing everything i do. It's rare that i don't improve lap time with every outing.

@NightmareMoon has a really good point about driving different cars. Rent a completely stock toyota camry V6 and take it to the track at novice or intermediate level. You'd be surprised how much fun you'll have, how much you learn, and surprisingly, how good the car is.

Also, take your s550 out to a rainy track day. Your brain will hurt afterwards with how much you take in. Same thing happened when I had to do laps in my F-150 during my SCCA tenure.

Turning laps in a rental Camry does sound like a lot of fun

 

[2morrow]

Turning laps in a rental Camry does sound like a lot of fun

The Racing school that I attended and the driving school that my son attended at Sonoma Raceway, had the instructors in Camrys, and those guys were surprisingly fast!

 

[Ewheels]

The Racing school that I attended and the driving school that my son attended at Sonoma Raceway, had the instructors in Camrys, and those guys were surprisingly fast!

Oh I believe it. Knowledge and skill will always beat out horsepower.

 

[PaddyPrix]

While many of us might have differing opinions on parts, tires, setup, etc,
I have a slight bias, as I'm somewhat of a data professional, so my choices are backed by data, and generally cheap as I can't afford anything else other than bang/buck champs. For me, my money and time was equally divided between watching all of that data and trying to get/make some sort of information out of it.

• (MUST) Trustworthy Data Acquisition. Whether it's all or some combination of phone app, a standalone box that reads your OBD and marries it to some GPS data, a GoPro, Garmin Catalyst, etc. Watch your old videos, and compare lap over lap, turn over turn, and compare your best lap/turn to your others and essentially try to piece together your perfect lap, screw everybody else.
  
  Sure, you might upgrade your car, but we're trying to factor out as much as we can and get it down to your driving, and what happens if you go a little faster, brake a little later, better angle, etc, etc. Now sure, if it's like your 1st time ever, there's still data, and for the most part, you can watch your progression. As you start turning more laps, you'll notice your turn speeds increase, lap times decrease, and at some point you'll have enough seat time at that track to know that say, "look, I can't go any faster than 57 in T3!" -- Great! What about the others? When I go out on a track day, I've already got a plan of what turns or areas I want to work on, and basically try approaching it at say, 6/10ths pace, then 7/10ths, and keep stepping it up, building that muscle memory, visual location/markers, faster hands, quicker pedaling, and well, if it's a turn that I can somewhat safely push it (i.e. no wall, safe runoff), maybe even push it too far, just so that I can get the data to definitely show me that the combination of me, the car, my skill, the tire, etc can't go any more. Plus, with track days, there aren't too many opportunities to get a competitive flyer lap, so while my times might be okay, I'm there to work on a few specific turns.
  
  
• PC/PSx/XB steering wheel/pedal setup and something like Asetto Corsa. While some of you might go ugh, such an old crappy game, it has a huge supportive community, and lots of aftermarket programs and people creating courses and laser scanned maps. If you figure a track day is say $300 and you get 4x 20 minute sessions, imagine how much more value you'd get out of a $300 setup, and the ability to play it all day and all night, and I don't care what the gas goes for around you, but heh, can't beat the price. If anything, perhaps just for familiarity.
  
  Don't need a powerful PC either with how CPU and GPU have somewhat plateaued, so any halfway decent PC or even laptop should do, worst case you have to turn some of the graphical quality down, but it's the super cheap seat time that we're going for here. I cannot even begin to tell you how many virtual laps I had done for a big event at Laguna Seca, couple hours a night for like 3 months. As it's the most expensive automotive course in all of North America, I can't even begin to fathom what that would have cost if I had that seat time at the actual course. Sure, the real in-car course is better, but even if the game is say 10% off, you're going to close a huuuuuge gap, and all of that experience should expedite your real-world talent on the course as you know how to drive your car, you know the course, so now it's just driving your car on the course, which is both easier and harder than it sounds, but significantly better than just taking that whole first lap blind, huh?

The real seat time will eventually come, and obviously that's what really matters, but you can close up a huge gap. If you also have your video data tied pretty nicely, doesn't hurt to upload your driving videos to something like YouTube and either ask others for pointers, or perhaps hire a race/driving coach who do the same video analysis and give you pretty good pointers about other little things they see like car/hand placement, footwork, timing, visual cues, etc.

If you're short on funds, honestly, the track days are a better value than a day or two at a driving school, just taking the cost and figuring out how much the seat time is. For the most part, you can gather the class/instructional portions of it from reading/youtubing, and the credentialed instructors are a big plus, but it's not as much 1:1 as you'd think, compared to say a day of NASA HPDE1 for 10% the price.

The fact that you are curious and looking for help is already a big-up compared to others who go to trackdays and come home thinking Roger Penske is calling them in the morning

 

[Ewheels]

While many of us might have differing opinions on parts, tires, setup, etc,
I have a slight bias, as I'm somewhat of a data professional, so my choices are backed by data, and generally cheap as I can't afford anything else other than bang/buck champs. For me, my money and time was equally divided between watching all of that data and trying to get/make some sort of information out of it.

• (MUST) Trustworthy Data Acquisition. Whether it's all or some combination of phone app, a standalone box that reads your OBD and marries it to some GPS data, a GoPro, Garmin Catalyst, etc. Watch your old videos, and compare lap over lap, turn over turn, and compare your best lap/turn to your others and essentially try to piece together your perfect lap, screw everybody else.
  
  Sure, you might upgrade your car, but we're trying to factor out as much as we can and get it down to your driving, and what happens if you go a little faster, brake a little later, better angle, etc, etc. Now sure, if it's like your 1st time ever, there's still data, and for the most part, you can watch your progression. As you start turning more laps, you'll notice your turn speeds increase, lap times decrease, and at some point you'll have enough seat time at that track to know that say, "look, I can't go any faster than 57 in T3!" -- Great! What about the others? When I go out on a track day, I've already got a plan of what turns or areas I want to work on, and basically try approaching it at say, 6/10ths pace, then 7/10ths, and keep stepping it up, building that muscle memory, visual location/markers, faster hands, quicker pedaling, and well, if it's a turn that I can somewhat safely push it (i.e. no wall, safe runoff), maybe even push it too far, just so that I can get the data to definitely show me that the combination of me, the car, my skill, the tire, etc can't go any more. Plus, with track days, there aren't too many opportunities to get a competitive flyer lap, so while my times might be okay, I'm there to work on a few specific turns.
  
  
• PC/PSx/XB steering wheel/pedal setup and something like Asetto Corsa. While some of you might go ugh, such an old crappy game, it has a huge supportive community, and lots of aftermarket programs and people creating courses and laser scanned maps. If you figure a track day is say $300 and you get 4x 20 minute sessions, imagine how much more value you'd get out of a $300 setup, and the ability to play it all day and all night, and I don't care what the gas goes for around you, but heh, can't beat the price. If anything, perhaps just for familiarity.
  
  Don't need a powerful PC either with how CPU and GPU have somewhat plateaued, so any halfway decent PC or even laptop should do, worst case you have to turn some of the graphical quality down, but it's the super cheap seat time that we're going for here. I cannot even begin to tell you how many virtual laps I had done for a big event at Laguna Seca, couple hours a night for like 3 months. As it's the most expensive automotive course in all of North America, I can't even begin to fathom what that would have cost if I had that seat time at the actual course. Sure, the real in-car course is better, but even if the game is say 10% off, you're going to close a huuuuuge gap, and all of that experience should expedite your real-world talent on the course as you know how to drive your car, you know the course, so now it's just driving your car on the course, which is both easier and harder than it sounds, but significantly better than just taking that whole first lap blind, huh?

The real seat time will eventually come, and obviously that's what really matters, but you can close up a huge gap. If you also have your video data tied pretty nicely, doesn't hurt to upload your driving videos to something like YouTube and either ask others for pointers, or perhaps hire a race/driving coach who do the same video analysis and give you pretty good pointers about other little things they see like car/hand placement, footwork, timing, visual cues, etc.

If you're short on funds, honestly, the track days are a better value than a day or two at a driving school, just taking the cost and figuring out how much the seat time is. For the most part, you can gather the class/instructional portions of it from reading/youtubing, and the credentialed instructors are a big plus, but it's not as much 1:1 as you'd think, compared to say a day of NASA HPDE1 for 10% the price.

The fact that you are curious and looking for help is already a big-up compared to others who go to trackdays and come home thinking Roger Penske is calling them in the morning

PATRICK!!
Man, I haven't seen you on this forum in probably years. Good to see your name pop up here.

 

[PaddyPrix]

PATRICK!!
Man, I haven't seen you on this forum in probably years. Good to see your name pop up here.

Never really left, just the type who would rather do something than talk about it. One day at a time, y'all enjoy it out there, because I'm going to burn it all down when I return or die tryin'

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