track rotor and pads

[BmacIL]

Norm,
You must be an old guy like me. I can't imagine relying on ABS during braking. If it kicks in, I change my whole entry line. I've always understood that under threshold braking, especially while entering a corner like 8 at Laguna, if you don't have ABS you will most likely lock a rear tire on corner entry. The tire is lightly loaded, so you're not likely to flat spot it.
Funny that you note a better lap time with ABS off. I've always believed that activating ABS on track is slower than maintaining good threshold braking.
I differentiate traction control from ABS even though TC utilizes the ABS to do it's job. ABS doesn't help me under braking, but TC does contribute to more consistent lap times. I think this is what you experienced. For example; traction control might tap the outside front brake if it detects excessive oversteer on corner entry which might cost you half a second if you relied upon your old fashioned manual correction.

Yes it's possible to be faster without ABS. Most won't be, though, and the ABS calibration these days allows for tighter margins to lockup than ever before. The PP and GT350 ABS cals get the average person (even track bro) closer to the theoretical maximum than they'll likely be able to achieve themselves.

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[shogun32]

The big 'win' with ABS is that it reacts far faster to an impending or actual lockup (and ones not felt in the seat of pants by an inexperienced driver), it lets go of just that one wheel instead of the human reaction which is to decrease/remove pressure on the pedal which removes braking from ALL of the wheels even those that were still rotating fine.

Without ABS the driver had to take an "enormity of time" (relatively speaking) to figure out how much pedal to remove and wait for the sensation that rotation was restored before re-applying maximum pressure. With all the modern wizardry a driver can just mash the pedal and keep it mashed the whole time and only let go once the car starts to come completely unglued.

The Camaro has not only no-lift shifting in the manual, it has no-lift throttle in a corner. Ie. once you get off the brakes you can literally floor it and the computer will figure out how much actual throttle to use and leverage individual wheel braking to manage side slip and chassis trajectory. Now THAT is cheating!

 

[Norm Peterson]

Norm,
You must be an old guy like me. I can't imagine relying on ABS during braking. If it kicks in, I change my whole entry line. I've always understood that under threshold braking, especially while entering a corner like 8 at Laguna, if you don't have ABS you will most likely lock a rear tire on corner entry. The tire is lightly loaded, so you're not likely to flat spot it.
Funny that you note a better lap time with ABS off. I've always believed that activating ABS on track is slower than maintaining good threshold braking.
I differentiate traction control from ABS even though TC utilizes the ABS to do it's job. ABS doesn't help me under braking, but TC does contribute to more consistent lap times. I think this is what you experienced. For example; traction control might tap the outside front brake if it detects excessive oversteer on corner entry which might cost you half a second if you relied upon your old fashioned manual correction.

​

Hmmm . . . I guess being in the baby class of 1947 probably does make me 'old'.

I should probably mention that while the TC on my '08 is basically worthless (I've intentionally tested it for effectiveness), I always turn it off anyway. Whether on the street or on the track.

Front brake usage reversteer sounds like stability control, aka Advancetrac, which my '08 was not equipped with. So when the ABS goes inop, I have no electronic "driver assistances" available. None whatsoever.


Norm

 

[Norm Peterson]

The big 'win' with ABS is that it reacts far faster to an impending or actual lockup (and ones not felt in the seat of pants by an inexperienced driver), it lets go of just that one wheel instead of the human reaction which is to decrease/remove pressure on the pedal which removes braking from ALL of the wheels even those that were still rotating fine.

Without ABS the driver had to take an "enormity of time" (relatively speaking) to figure out how much pedal to remove and wait for the sensation that rotation was restored before re-applying maximum pressure. With all the modern wizardry a driver can just mash the pedal and keep it mashed the whole time and only let go once the car starts to come completely unglued.

Understood. I do know that within my experience lap times were slightly more consistent while the ABS was available.


Norm

 

[Flyhalf]

FYI
4s OEM diameter 27.7
vs
KUHMO ACR 24.9 (the more aggressive tire i tried )
2.8 inch difference and not issue at all.

View attachment 428528

 

[Digital_Synapse]

The GLOK GS1 street pad.

Did I price these correctly? $242 for just the front pads?!

 

[NightmareMoon]

Did I price these correctly? $242 for just the front pads?!

Sounds about right. Pads last a really long time so IDK seems not so expensive if you look at it as dollars per year.

 

[Norm Peterson]

Did I price these correctly? $242 for just the front pads?!

That's what I found on the G-loc site. You might try KNS brakes to see if there's anything to be saved there.

FWIW, G-loc street pads probably shouldn't be compared to $50 mass-market pads.


Norm

 

[2015Etrac]

Have any of you ran the stock PP pads hard at the track? How well do they hold up? I've only run them on one beginner track day and they felt great, but I obviously wasn't pushing the car anywhere near its full potential.

 

[bnightstar]

Have any of you ran the stock PP pads hard at the track? How well do they hold up? I've only run them on one beginner track day and they felt great, but I obviously wasn't pushing the car anywhere near its full potential.

I don't have problems with the stock PP Pads though they are expensive. My first set lasted around 60 laps on a 2 km track with hard brake points like 170+ km to 80 km on two places. But I never experience brake fade and the limiting factor was actually the brakes fluid (changed to Motul RBF660). But for the price of the PP Pads you can get G-Loc which will be better.

 

[BmacIL]

Have any of you ran the stock PP pads hard at the track? How well do they hold up? I've only run them on one beginner track day and they felt great, but I obviously wasn't pushing the car anywhere near its full potential.

For novice to intermediate drivers on normal street tires (not RE71Rs or stickier), they will be more than adequate. As you add grip and experience, a higher friction and temp range pad becomes more necessary. It is also very track dependent.

 

[Radiation Joe]

Have any of you ran the stock PP pads hard at the track? How well do they hold up? I've only run them on one beginner track day and they felt great, but I obviously wasn't pushing the car anywhere near its full potential.

If I read correctly on this site, the stock PP pads are Ferodo DS2500. I used those pads on a very similar car (BMW e90 M3, same weight, similar suspension). I ran them at Watkins Glen and NJMSP. I wasn't a huge fan of them, but they didn't overheat. I overheated street tires (Michelin PS2s), but not the pads. The BMW uses smaller pads with single piston calipers.

 

[fatbillybob]

Have any of you ran the stock PP pads hard at the track? How well do they hold up? I've only run them on one beginner track day and they felt great, but I obviously wasn't pushing the car anywhere near its full potential.

I'm an SCCA clubracer. I bought my 2019 PP1 to be my next racecar. I smeared and overheated the PP1 brake pads in the 1st 20min session just learning the car and got the warning light on my diff in 8 laps at WSIR. I think I am hard on things. I run carbotech xp20's on a 3500lb C5Z06 vette racecar. But the heavy mustang GT at 3700lb with the fuel light on pretty much killed the XP20 pads with 2 piece rotors too. I think I will be fine with the XP24's and or ducted brake cooling but will be on stickier hoosier race tires so who knows how much more work I have to go.

I think the PP1 pad is very entry level. You should be fine for a very short while but I'm pretty sure you are going to outgrow those pads really quickly.

 

[BmacIL]

When all you know how to do is mash... ^^^^

 

[NightmareMoon]

I ran the stock PP1 pads for a bunch of events and only upgraded when I felt they might be glazing and loosing some of their stopping power, but it wasn’t a dramatic change. I was a quick intermediate driver when I upgraded. Most novices and and intermediates will be fine with stock PP1 pads IMHO.

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