Squashing Misinformation on Billet Gears (Oil Pump, Crankshaft Sprocket) OPG

[phunk]

a couple cars out of hundreds loses an oil pump and now were all train wrecks waiting to happen lol. and dont tell my car that its cooling system is stock, i wouldnt want it to realize and start having heat issues.

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[JadedGT]

There is so much out there about oil pump gears and I reached out to someone in R&D at ford performance to get some additional information on this issue. The gentleman I spoke with has indicated that using incompatible dampers has a big part to play in shattering the oil pump gears. I also inquired about the effect on the oil pump gears for my naturally aspirated build as i've pre ordered power pack 3; which raises the red line to 7500rpm and I was assured that I'd be safe with my stock oil pump gears and there is no difference between the oil pump on the 2015 mustang gt and the boss race cars which also have a 7500rpm red line.
The coyote is definitely a capable platform, and can handle some conservative boosting but for all the experts out there who think they can just slap a blower with an aggressive tune with gears on a high compression engine and think it's all good; are you for real?
I'm all about reliable and usable power and adding a blower would in my opinion entail so many other upgrades that it just wouldn't be worth it for me. I think adding a blower should include many other additions, from the engine internals, fuel system, suspension, drive train, reducing some weight up front to somehow to keep the balance of the car, wider tires, cooling, cooling, cooling. I hate to say it but alot of the forced induction builds on here are a train wreck waiting to happen.

I am going to take Terry at Beefcake's and Travis at Boostworks opinion over yours. They are more qualified to make that assessment that you. Having already upgraded my gears and made some cooling system upgrades already the power I have added does not exceed the threshold both of them agreed was okay on the stock engine. Which is in the 800hp range to the flywheel. At a later date and time if I decide I want to up the power I will build an engine for it and switch to a twin turbo setup most likely when I want to hit 1000+.

Now the clutch, drivetrain and traction are more of an issue at this point and each is being addressed one at a time.

Yes, I am for real. ;)

 

[Roh92cp]

There is so much out there about oil pump gears and I reached out to someone in R&D at ford performance to get some additional information on this issue. The gentleman I spoke with has indicated that using incompatible dampers has a big part to play in shattering the oil pump gears. I also inquired about the effect on the oil pump gears for my naturally aspirated build as i've pre ordered power pack 3; which raises the red line to 7500rpm and I was assured that I'd be safe with my stock oil pump gears and there is no difference between the oil pump on the 2015 mustang gt and the boss race cars which also have a 7500rpm red line.
The coyote is definitely a capable platform, and can handle some conservative boosting but for all the experts out there who think they can just slap a blower with an aggressive tune with gears on a high compression engine and think it's all good; are you for real?
I'm all about reliable and usable power and adding a blower would in my opinion entail so many other upgrades that it just wouldn't be worth it for me. I think adding a blower should include many other additions, from the engine internals, fuel system, suspension, drive train, reducing some weight up front to somehow to keep the balance of the car, wider tires, cooling, cooling, cooling. I hate to say it but alot of the forced induction builds on here are a train wreck waiting to happen.[/QUOTE

Most power adder setups here are running conservative boost 8-11 psi with cam timing being accounted for in the calibration so that high compression is not achieved at lower loads. Many here have upgraded OPG and timing gears and many without with no issue. The dampers I've seen used are the ATI which has been tested on the CJ and with Whipple testing and the MMR/Romac which has been tested as well. I had as you may know from the massive thread I started an OPG failure recently and to say it was due to one particular thing is just shooting in the dark. To say most builds are a train reck I think is way over the top man! The fact is the stock OPG is on thin ice with power adder in my new opinion, many may not have failure but the risk is real for sure.

 

[Pongo23]

Clarifying what I said

Before anyone gets offended; what I said is my personal opinion and preference. I prefer taking a holistic approach when modifying my vehicles and I simply can't afford to do what I want to my coyote. I can afford the whipple stage 1 kit installed but then I'd want a host of other parts to compliment the extra power that'd be way out of my budget. What good is it to have all that extra power and you can't put the power down consistently; just my opinion not knocking anyone's modding. My opinion is based off a whole integrated upgrade is greather than the sum of parts. But again, im not an expert but how can you tell me 800hp is safe on the stock coyote; but all things are relative. I may very well have a different definition of safe than you do. Also, I'm not an expert and not portraying to be one; I do alot of reading on this forum but when I get tired of the differing opinions, I do reach out to ford performance support with questions. There's a reason why the warrantied roush/ford racing kit is only tuned down to make about 550 at the wheel; there's definitely some performance left on the table but these guys know for long term, the additional stress on the stock moving parts is not an ideal situation.

I am going to take Terry at Beefcake's and Travis at Boostworks opinion over yours. They are more qualified to make that assessment that you. Having already upgraded my gears and made some cooling system upgrades already the power I have added does not exceed the threshold both of them agreed was okay on the stock engine. Which is in the 800hp range to the flywheel. At a later date and time if I decide I want to up the power I will build an engine for it and switch to a twin turbo setup most likely when I want to hit 1000+.

Now the clutch, drivetrain and traction are more of an issue at this point and each is being addressed one at a time.

Yes, I am for real. ;)

 

[mustang1]

Before anyone gets offended; what I said is my personal opinion and preference. I prefer taking a holistic approach when modifying my vehicles and I simply can't afford to do what I want to my coyote. I can afford the whipple stage 1 kit installed but then I'd want a host of other parts to compliment the extra power that'd be way out of my budget. What good is it to have all that extra power and you can't put the power down consistently; ...

Bragging rights

At least get the billet OPG and C/S. Other parts may break but you will only be buying those parts and not a whole new engine.

 

[JadedGT]

Before anyone gets offended; what I said is my personal opinion and preference. I prefer taking a holistic approach when modifying my vehicles and I simply can't afford to do what I want to my coyote. I can afford the whipple stage 1 kit installed but then I'd want a host of other parts to compliment the extra power that'd be way out of my budget. What good is it to have all that extra power and you can't put the power down consistently; just my opinion not knocking anyone's modding. My opinion is based off a whole integrated upgrade is greather than the sum of parts. But again, im not an expert but how can you tell me 800hp is safe on the stock coyote; but all things are relative. I may very well have a different definition of safe than you do. Also, I'm not an expert and not portraying to be one; I do alot of reading on this forum but when I get tired of the differing opinions, I do reach out to ford performance support with questions. There's a reason why the warrantied roush/ford racing kit is only tuned down to make about 550 at the wheel; there's definitely some performance left on the table but these guys know for long term, the additional stress on the stock moving parts is not an ideal situation.

There are several builds that are running 700 to 800 hp at the flywheel from multiple vendors that run that power on stock engines. Boostworks, Beefcake, Lethal Performance, etc. Most will tell you they do not recommend going beyond that point without building a motor and drivetrain that can handle that power. I am going by what I have been told and the Coyote engine in the 2015+ mustangs is not a new platform it has been around for a little while. Companies like Procharger, Whipple, Hellion and others know what kind of power you can put to the engine and when you need to build an engine to handle the extra power. I am currently running a Lund tune on mine and they tend to be a conservative tuner and they don't push the motor past what it can handle.

Not upset or anything there are quite a few of us running 700+ on stock engines(Other than the OPG and crank gear.) IF and when mine goes it will give me an excuse to up the power.

 

[Inigo]

Just do it

 

[Inigo]

Use it whenever...

 

[Inigo]

Just one more.. I promise

 

[Gibbo205]

There is so much out there about oil pump gears and I reached out to someone in R&D at ford performance to get some additional information on this issue. The gentleman I spoke with has indicated that using incompatible dampers has a big part to play in shattering the oil pump gears. I also inquired about the effect on the oil pump gears for my naturally aspirated build as i've pre ordered power pack 3; which raises the red line to 7500rpm and I was assured that I'd be safe with my stock oil pump gears and there is no difference between the oil pump on the 2015 mustang gt and the boss race cars which also have a 7500rpm red line.
The coyote is definitely a capable platform, and can handle some conservative boosting but for all the experts out there who think they can just slap a blower with an aggressive tune with gears on a high compression engine and think it's all good; are you for real?
I'm all about reliable and usable power and adding a blower would in my opinion entail so many other upgrades that it just wouldn't be worth it for me. I think adding a blower should include many other additions, from the engine internals, fuel system, suspension, drive train, reducing some weight up front to somehow to keep the balance of the car, wider tires, cooling, cooling, cooling. I hate to say it but alot of the forced induction builds on here are a train wreck waiting to happen.

I also spoke with FRPP about Power Pack 3 and the increased 7500rpm. They informed me similar that our Coyote shares the same components as found in the outgoing BOSS 302 car, as such spinning the engine to 7500RPM with upto around 500HP NA is fine and no further upgrades are required.

I then asked about above 7500rpm with a custom tune and they simply said the engine is not designed for RPM beyond 7500rpm and as such they recommended the following upgrades to make the car more reliable if intending to rev it towards 8000rpm:
- ATI Balancer (They use this on cobrajet)
- Cobrajet / BOSS chain tensioners (again they use these on cobrajet)
- FRPP Oil pump with TSS gears (again used on cobrajet)


They said doing the above would safeguard the engine.

 

[B Gordon]

Since this thread is about squashing misinformation on billet oil pump gears, I have a couple of questions rattling around in my head that I feel sure could be answered.

As part of a program to get everything squared away before actually having twin turbo's added to my 2015 GT, would there be any issues with having the OPG changed effecting the remainder of my factory warranty on the engine?
My thought process is to have the twin turbo's installed shortly after my drivetrain warranty expires but to do other upgrades while the warranty is still active.

Next question (and I know this is an absolute judgement call on getting done or not).
If I am not going to raise the red line on the engine and am figuring on keeping the boost level down to keep the car below 600 hp, is there any reason other than long term insurance for the motor to get the items listed in this thread done?
To ask the question another way, so far have there been any failures if the red line is kept at the factory level and the power level is kept below 600 hp?

 

[JadedGT]

I don't work for Ford so I can't say for sure but replacing internal engine parts most likely voids the warranty on the engine.

Not sure about the other question.

 

[Roh92cp]

Since this thread is about squashing misinformation on billet oil pump gears, I have a couple of questions rattling around in my head that I feel sure could be answered.

As part of a program to get everything squared away before actually having twin turbo's added to my 2015 GT, would there be any issues with having the OPG changed effecting the remainder of my factory warranty on the engine?
My thought process is to have the twin turbo's installed shortly after my drivetrain warranty expires but to do other upgrades while the warranty is still active.

Next question (and I know this is an absolute judgement call on getting done or not).
If I am not going to raise the red line on the engine and am figuring on keeping the boost level down to keep the car below 600 hp, is there any reason other than long term insurance for the motor to get the items listed in this thread done?
To ask the question another way, so far have there been any failures if the red line is kept at the factory level and the power level is kept below 600 hp?

I think you could get the OPG done and they wouldn't know as its inside the oil pump housing and they would not take that apart, however the crank gear would look different to them and they could notice if they had to tear down for inspection of an engine problem. However if they never had to take the timing cover off for the warranty work then they wouldn't know right.

On your second question you like me thought well I'll not be really wringing this car out and it's a street cruiser so maybe I don't have to upgrade the OPG and TG, but just think of how fast your RPM goes up when wheels are spinning in first and second it's very easy to exceed the RPM your are trying to keep it under and frankly crank jerk is real killer to the timing gears and that happens whenever the crankshaft changes speeds at full load. Think of when wheels are spinning and you hit a road joint or bump and wheels grab then spin again. It's this jerking on the crank snout that causes shock to the OPG and timing gear.

 

[BMR Tech]

Two things to consider.

1: Some time ago, Ford Performance started using billet oil pump gears in their "Aluminator" engines.

*Would they install them if those engines did not feature a warranty?

2: 7500 RPM - LOL... If you take these cars and throw the typical bolt-on mods, with a GT350 Intake set-up on it, and have a rev limit of 7500, I think you are spending alot of money for little gains. I am a gearhead, so maybe that is why I say this...

As you will see in a dyno sheet below, the GT350 intake is just starting to really shine at 7,000....and it is clear that power would still be close to peak at 7500. This curve needs to rev to 8,000 if you ask me. So why not spring for the billet pieces and the damper, and enjoy that 100+rwhp gain. ;)

 

[BMR Tech]

My second addition is, our PP car with GT350 intake and Comp Cams spends a serious amount of time over 7K rpm...and hits 8K constantly when we track the car at Sebring. Our driver is rev happy...and logs show he smashes the 8100 rev limiter like its his only job.

Mods are ATI, Billet OPG/Timing Gear, Comp Cams, ARH Exhaust and the full GT350 Set-Up.

The car buries 8K. It wants more. But I am worried about the rotating assembly at this point, so we keep it to 8100 limit.

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