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Squashing Misinformation on Billet Gears (Oil Pump, Crankshaft Sprocket) OPG

samcrac

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This is not another thread posing the question: "Should I upgrade these or should I be fine running my stock ones?"

I specifically set out to start this thread because it seems there is too much mis-information about these gears (specifically OPG and crank sprocket gears).

First off, I sometimes do too much research when something sparks my interest, and this debate really sparked my interest. Searching through multiple mustang forums, I found several (individual) posts about people shattering their Oil Pump Gears. Also, as of recent, Travis @ Boostworks publicly posted that his OPG let loose on a Twin Turbo test car. On youtube in the last few weeks, ANOTHER twin car let loose on a dyno:

[ame="[MEDIA=youtube]8Vah_roeC4w[/MEDIA]"]

Here is another testimonial from someone with a Twin Turbo (2014) Car with the OPG going (post 9 on a popular SVT car forum; we are not allowed to post other forum links here so you will have to find it)

There are many more, but these are some of the more recent postings I have found on this matter. All 3 of these cars are twin turbo cars.

I'm sure added harmonics from a belt driven supercharger do change things, and I'm not doubting, but with 3 RECENT examples of TT cars, why does it seem necessary to change the harmonic balancer? This is just a question I'm posing, this thread is not about balancers though so I am not going any further here.

To clear up some of the misconception of why billet and heat treated oil pump gears fix the issue; it is not the hardness of the metal we are interested in. From what I understand, the factory powdered metal is VERY hard but think of it like glass, any shock and it shatters. Now the aftermarket ones are the idea that these can take a harsh shock and actually be semi malleable, and flex without cracking. From what I understand, the heat treating process makes the difference in this.

There have been so many instances in OPGs breaking, and everyone says its something different: RPM Level, Power Level, added harmonics, the moon phase, etc..

It seems to me that if we take a basic benchmark of Forced Induction cars, and lets think TVS2300 cars (Roush, Edelbrock) from 11 and UP; these cars come with conservative tunes, and make what we are led to believe conservative boost/power levels for stock motors. I think we can believe this because they offer an added power terrain warranty to go along. Everyone knows that if they had to pay out the majority of these cars within the span of the warranty it wouldn't make any sense to offer it, or even offer the kit in the first place.

The decision now comes to you on the oil pump gear. Analyze your setup, and make your own decision.

I think pretty much the very similar theory apply to the Crank Sprocket. However, I encourage everyone here to do some research, and find one REAL crank sprocket that has actually broken at a reasonable non built motor power level (say 700RWHP or under) at factory RPM limit.

The only one I could find period is the screenshot of a Facebook post that MMR puts in every single one of their advertisement posts. In this post they even go to the extent to lead people to believe that Ford made the 2015 sprocket THINNER than the previous years. Is this true? I really don't know but you be the judge. Currently, MMR is the only manufacturer of these gears for 15+ cars.

Like everyone here, we all try to stay in budget when building our cars. The 2015 Coyote has provided an amazing platform for people to apply forced induction and go crazy fast on a decent budget. Sometimes we get out of hand, as a $200 Oil gear can turn into a $2000 proposition quick (+ crank sprocket, + ati balancer, + hardware, + labor).

PLEASE KEEP IN MIND THIS TOPIC IS RELATIVE. Each build is different. I am trying to relate mostly to cars with a Supercharger kit running between 6-700WHP without grossly raising the factory redline limit since it seems to be such a popular setup for these cars

I would like to thanks the following people for having and honest discussion on this and having a neutral bias as to whether these are actually needed or not:

Travis@ Boostworks
Terry @ Beefcake
Travis@ Boundary
John C with the Sweet Boostworks Kenne Bell setup

For what it is worth; a call to Ford Racing told me that on their kit, using their tune, they have experienced 0 OPG/Crankshaft gear failure and said it is designed to work just perfectly within these tolerances
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zaquhree

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The factory gear is a liability and needs to go whether you want to do it or not it needs to be done.

Might as well do the crank gear at the same time since it is thinner from the pictures I have seen and my stock gear vs my MMR gear. My stock timing gear had sharp edges from the chain wearing down the teeth a little at 8k miles.
 

BMR Tech

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Curtis, who is a member on this forum, had his OEM Timing Gear shatter on his VMP TVS car. Stock motor, and was not making 700+ to the tire.

It is true. The 2015 does have a weaker timing gear. I was one of the first people to build the engine in these cars, and I awaited MMR to finish up the '15 specific timing gear so I could use it on my build.

I speak to A LOT of S197 and S550 owners. I know that I have had atleast 3 customers break their OEM S550 Timing Gears, unfortunately.

I am a firm believer that these cars need to have the Billet Gears and an ATI Damper when being built to perform at 80%+ more than the OEM Power level, and tuned to spin past the OEM Redline/Limiter/Shift points.

Good post.
 

zaquhree

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Curtis, who is a member on this forum, had his OEM Timing Gear shatter on his VMP TVS car. Stock motor, and was not making 700+ to the tire.

It is true. The 2015 does have a weaker timing gear. I was one of the first people to build the engine in these cars, and I awaited MMR to finish up the '15 specific timing gear so I could use it on my build.

I speak to A LOT of S197 and S550 owners. I know that I have had atleast 3 customers break their OEM S550 Timing Gears, unfortunately.

I am a firm believer that these cars need to have the Billet Gears and an ATI Damper when being built to perform at 80%+ more than the OEM Power level, and tuned to spin past the OEM Redline/Limiter/Shift points.

Good post.
I will be adding the Damper from Collin at RI as soon as I free up some funds. Then I will have the trifecta of protection :first:
 

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Just outa curiosity - has anyone broken these revving no higher than OEM rev limit?

Every other tuned car I see here is revving to at least 7-7200. I always wondered about that.
 

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evo8904

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I will be adding the Damper from Collin at RI as soon as I free up some funds. Then I will have the trifecta of protection :first:
I will be getting a damper from Collin too. I already have the opg and tg but since there are occasions that I hit 8000rpms, I would like to have the damper too.
 

jasonstang

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Just outa curiosity - has anyone broken these revving no higher than OEM rev limit?

Every other tuned car I see here is revving to at least 7-7200. I always wondered about that.
From reading all these threads, I find rpm is not the issue. The issue is added torque made the crank to flex and twist more which causes the opg to be out of alignment. Also the added torque causes the crank to vibrate more which the stock damper can't handle breaking the cam gear.
 

Superman15

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The factory gear is a liability and needs to go whether you want to do it or not it needs to be done.

Might as well do the crank gear at the same time since it is thinner from the pictures I have seen and my stock gear vs my MMR gear. My stock timing gear had sharp edges from the chain wearing down the teeth a little at 8k miles.
Couldn't agree more with your first sentence. Especially since you already have the front of it tore down to do the OPG. There wont be a better time to do the sprocket than right then.
 

BDMACH1

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We are installing the OPG's, crank sprocket, and ATI 20% damper before the Whipple goes on. While doing my own research on this, I decided to go ahead and change out the the timing chain tensioners to the one's from the BOSS 302 and Cobra Jet engines. Figured since we are going to rev it past the factory RPM limit, and it was already apart anyways...may as well do them too!

Bob
 

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Evilwill

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Please forgive my lack of understanding and i'm trying to high jack the thread.
But what is the difference in a basic ATI damper and a 20% OD ATI damper?
 

jasonstang

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Please forgive my lack of understanding and i'm trying to high jack the thread.
But what is the difference in a basic ATI damper and a 20% OD ATI damper?
Diameter. It's bigger so everything else is spinning faster such as water pump.
It also makes your supercharger appear to have smaller pulley too.
 

Evilwill

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Diameter. It's bigger so everything else is spinning faster such as water pump.
It also makes your supercharger appear to have smaller pulley too.
Would that put more of a strain on the engine or less of a strain?
 

jasonstang

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Would that put more of a strain on the engine or less of a strain?
The added strain would be negligent but you are making more pressure and power by spinning the supercharger faster unless you fit 20% bigger supercharger pulley to counter the increase.
 

ProChargerTECH

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Even on my older Mod-Motor builds on my personal toys.... I always did billet OPG's.
Been doing that since about 2003-ish..... yes that long. Since I have seen oiling issues on even BONE STOCK mod motor fords since the days the have come out. So to me its never been about RPM, or HP. Just seems to boil down to luck.

Its good added insurance, for something that can do so much damage.

Many LS guys do the same thing when they do a camshaft swap in their cars.
Upgraded oil pumps, pick ups, and even o-rings to keep from having oil issues.

Just my .02



NOTE: we don't make OPG's so no $$$ involved. Just posting about my personal stuff I have dealt with. Every mod motor I built got billet OPGs.. period.
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