Some New GT500 Videos, Including Track Footage

Discussion in 'Shelby GT500 Mustang' started by Patio208, May 10, 2019.

  1. AmericanV8Guy

    AmericanV8Guy Well-Known Member

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    I think that the DCT will actually prevent any truly amazing gains. DCTs are usually pretty "fragile" when compared to standard autos, and don't do well with really high TQ numbers. Maybe Tremec found a way around this, but according to their site, their DCT is rated for "only" 663lb-ft. Yet another reason its disappointing that Ford opted (currently) for a DCT only route for the GT500. For comparison, the ZL1 that uses Chevy's version of the A10 can support over 1000 lb-ft (that's a lot of twisting!) and is still wickedly fast at shifting. Does a DCT shift faster? Yes, but only by milliseconds. Is it as strong as the A10? Most likely not. is it as fun as a manual? IMO definitely not.
    http://www.tremec.com/menu.php?m=155
     
  2. protraxduner

    protraxduner Well-Known Member

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    This is my concern too, that the DCT is already at its limit with stock HP/TQ.....So lets hope they have added some 'padding' to those numbers or maybe the aftermarket will make some super duper parts. Which I have no idea what that would be cause i have no idea what fails or is the weak point in a DCT.....but sounds expensive just talking about it. And i am all on board with the DCT, i think it is a great choice, just hope it works out with bigger HP/TQ numbers....
     
  3. Epiphany

    Epiphany Well-Known Member

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    What car with "really high TQ numbers" proved its DCT to be fragile?
     
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  4. AmericanV8Guy

    AmericanV8Guy Well-Known Member

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    Im not doing the research for you, it's called Google. And by really high I mean anything 50-100+ over OEM torque numbers. It's a known mechanical fact that DCTs are much more fragile (and obviously difficult and expensive to fix) than auto and manual transmissions. Wether you believe me or not is up to you, but that is the truth of DCTs. Again, maybe Tremec found a way to allow for much more torque, but I honestly doubt it. DCTs are much more complex than standard autos, and the much greater number of parts contained in a single DCT (check the Tremec link I posted) make them less "robust" and more fragile. Even BMW is now planning to move away from them in favor of autos.
    At the end of the day, they are slightly obsolete when compared to newer autos. Yes, the shifts are "faster", but only by milliseconds, aka pretty imperceptible when compared to newer autos like the A10 shift speeds (that actually shift faster than Porsche's "PDK" DCTs). The GT500 would have most likely been just as fast with the A10, which makes me think that they added the DCT for "bragging" rights (ie because supercars use them) and to up the price of admission.
    Obviously 650 lb-ft should be plenty for most people, but its unfortunate that some people won't be able to tune their car to have far more just because Ford chose to go with a DCT. Or time will prove that I'm wrong and we'll see it handle insane amounts of power, but I'm not holding my breath.
     
  5. Epiphany

    Epiphany Well-Known Member

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    Lol, I'm not asking you to do any research for me. I merely asked you to respond to a statement you made. You now further your statement by making another...

    ...and yet you still provide zero detail to back up your statement.

    And then you throw in this gem of a red herring...

    Nobody is arguing BMW's position, or cost. Yet you were implying that "really high horsepower cars" had fragile DCT's. Were these BMW's really high horsepower and is/was BMW moving away from them due to them due to the fact that they couldn't handle this kind of power? Red herring indeed.

    Again, what high horsepower car(s) proved the DCT to be a fragile transmission?
     
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  6. AmericanV8Guy

    AmericanV8Guy Well-Known Member

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    I just had surgery to repair a ripped tendon in my right arm, so typing all of that was already a bitch. Clearly you are being an ass for the sake of being an ass. so, here are a few links:
    BMW M5 (i would never own a bimmer but they are known to have a great DCT)
    https://www.bmwusa.com/vehicles/m-models/m5.html

    Most DCTs BMW would use would fail after 600lbs-ft
    https://f80.bimmerpost.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1064017

    DCT vs auto:
    https://www.cnet.com/roadshow/news/what-happened-to-the-dual-clutch-transmission/

    Porsche PDK max torque
    https://www.6speedonline.com/forums/997/177715-pdk-torque-limits.html

    Aston Martin CEO saying dct is on its way out:
    https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a...icts-the-demise-of-dual-clutch-transmissions/

    or look at all the failures Ferrari DCT owners face. Also a reason why Lambo is moving away from DCTs (ie the Aventador uses its own auto-manual hybrid)

    Or just keep living in denial and yelling "red herring" because someone isn't stapling a picture of a failed DCT to your face . What do I care?
     
  7. Epiphany

    Epiphany Well-Known Member

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    Sorry to hear about your surgery. I happened to just have had open heart surgery and also lost the use of my right hand and while typing with my left hand is a bitch I'm not here to complain about it. No need to be a genuine ass. So let's dig in to your links...

    Link #1
    So explain the relevance in linking to a BMW M5 page.

    Link #2
    A link to a Bimmer thread regarding tuning and slippage in 2014. I'm looking to see where the trans was "fragile" but I'm not seeing it. Care to delineate?

    Link #3
    A 6SpeedOnline link to 2009 where somebody inquires as to the limits of a Porsche PDK. A few posts later and with little speculation, the thread ends. Very convincing!

    Link #4
    A C&D article that was fodder here a year ago. Aston's CEO isn't a fan of DCT's and "produced a prediction that all electronically controlled clutched gearboxes are living on borrowed time, be they single-clutch automated manuals or dual-clutch automatics." Apparently he missed the memo from Chevrolet on the upcoming Corvette, from Ford on the upcoming GT500, or Tremec, the company that is making it happen on cars that actually are producing large torque figures.

    The "failed" DCT photo stapled to your brain doesn't correlate to circa 2020 and the DCT's developed by Tremec. Your trail of failure leads nowhere in this regard. If you can point to a systemic failure in design or manufacturing I'm quite sure Tremec and Ford engineers would be interested in the case being pointed out to them as would numerous prospective GT500 buyers. Better rest that hand up first though.
     
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  8. Dub347sbf

    Dub347sbf Well-Known Member

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    #23 Dub347sbf, May 15, 2019
    Last edited: May 16, 2019
    I've been reading this and don't know enough to throw an opinion out (crazy right, I won't just spew BS about stuff I don't know about) but, what is the weight difference between the 7 speed DTC and the A10? May that be a reason they chose it? And if it is heavier then cool, I just don't know and yes plan on doing research.

    Edit: a quick, maybe non accurate search shows the A10 at 235 and the DTC 7 at 187-198. Looks like at least 37 pound savings which is good. I don't know that it's worth it, but sounds good.

    Edit 2: actually the newer DTC looks like its 229. So only 6 pounds of savings there.

    http://www.f150hub.com/trans/10r80.html

    https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...Vaw3nOQMvMWMwwrjjq4Y6UTKX&cshid=1557979495515

    Edit 3: wasn't saying anyone above doesn't know what they are talking about, i was just saying i don't. Added links i looked at.
     
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  9. AmericanV8Guy

    AmericanV8Guy Well-Known Member

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    I'm not sure the weight difference between those two, but GENERALLY (again, you will see it through google) a DCT is heavier than a "standard" auto (again, many more parts)
     
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  10. Epiphany

    Epiphany Well-Known Member

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    Ford's 10R80 and GM's 10L80 are indeed 230-235lbs dry. The GT500 DCT from Tremec is very close to the same weight. A 10 speed auto that can handle power in the range of Tremec's new DCT is going to be just as hefty.
     
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  11. Dub347sbf

    Dub347sbf Well-Known Member

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    Thank you, that is what google told me too, but i was just curious. Good info.
     
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  12. V00D00

    V00D00 Well-Known Member

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    DCT Rules
     
  13. Hack

    Hack Well-Known Member

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    AFAIK a DCT internals are very similar to a manual transmission. There's nothing inherently inferior to the DCT. In fact, in theory it should be superior to a manual because a computer is controlling the shifts. I think many manual transmission failures can be attributed to user error or user abuse. The computer controlling a DCT will never miss a shift or accidentally select first gear when it intended to select third.
     
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  14. protraxduner

    protraxduner Well-Known Member

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    My knowledge of DCT's is very limited and at least 5 years old, and around 5 years ago.....I believe....it was the greatest thing since sliced bread.....However if i remember correctly the issues around DCT's were about handling large amounts of Torque/Power.....NOT that they couldn't but to accomadate large amounts of power they had to grow in size, enough in size that it made them too big. This is me remembering interweb crap from many years ago so i am not sure any of it is valid anymore or ever was.....I am excited about the new DCT, i just hope it can handle at least another 100-200 HP without grenading.
     
  15. Hack

    Hack Well-Known Member

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    The stock GT500 will already make enough power to spin the tires up past 100 mph. It's probably if you find a way to get the car to hook up all that power that parts will start failing.
     
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