Seriously, How many tick/rattle engines in the last 2 months?

[Stokely77x]

My 19 GT ticks, rattles and knocks. Taking it into the dealer tomorrow just have it noted. I know its probably a useless case but I at least can tell myself I tried. Another thing that kinda concerns me is if this thing has 460hp, its sure doesn't feel like it. It seems like my Focus ST had more than this. But maybe it's just me.

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[GT Pony]

If this tick noise is caused by cavitation of the oil then Ceratec may be working in a couple of ways:

Cavitation is the formation and collapse of bubbles formed by large changes in pressure such as in bearings and piston/wall. A sudden lowering of the pressure developes bubbles and they then pop giving off this typewriter sound.

1/ I wonder if Ceratec is altering the surface tension of the oil allowing either no bubbles to form or lots of smaller quieter ones.
2/ Also as Ceratec contains lots of little ceramic pieces these might allow nucleation of many smaller bubbles rather than just one bigger one.

It would explain why adding the stuff works almost straight away and has possibly nothing to do with friction, the main selling point of Ceratec.

It doesn't explain why some people using Ceratec said the engine remained tick free when they changed oil, but didn't add Ceratec and just ran normal oil. If it was oil cavitation it would have shown back up at that point.

LiquiMoly says the Ceratec anti-friction coating can last up to 30K miles. This observation and other information points away from oil cavitation, and more towards the friction level between moving parts.

Also, if you read the technical paper I linked to in previous posts, you'll see oil cavitation in journal bearings increases with oil viscosity and rotational speed. But the typewriter tick is more pronounced at idle to 1500 RPM, and with thin oil, so that's opposite of what the lab testing showed in the paper.

 

[VinnyVicci]

19 gt pp1 a10. No tick or rattle..1500miles. Engine runs smooth.

 

[kev1949]

Just curious, I was wondering if any new GT's owners (say in the last 2 months) have gotten a noisy 2019
Was hoping the later builds have been a bit better than 18's or early 19's

Took delivery 10-10-18.Engine build date 9-26-2018. I"ve put on 3200 miles.I don't find the engine much noisier than the LS3 in my 08 vette.

 

[GT Pony]

That's my thought, since the tick is also quieted by using XL-17, Krex, and probably a few other solid lube additives.

All additives to reduce friction.

 

[Condor1970]

It doesn't explain why some people using Ceratec said the engine remained tick free when they changed oil, but didn't add Ceratec and just ran normal oil. If it was oil cavitation it would have shown back up at that point.

LiquiMoly says the Ceratec anti-friction coating can last up to 30K miles. This observation and other information points away from oil cavitation, and more towards the friction level between moving parts.

Also, if you read the technical paper I linked to in previous posts, you'll see oil cavitation in journal bearings increases with oil viscosity and rotational speed. But the typewriter tick is more pronounced at idle to 1500 RPM, and with thin oil, so that's opposite of what the lab testing showed in the paper.

What's weird, is I added only 1/2 bottle of Ceratec, and virtually all ticking went away. As it started plating itself over 1,000 miles to the metal, and the concentration of solids in the oil dropped, the ticking then got much louder. Then, I added the other 1/2 bottle, and the ticking went away again completely. Now that I have over 5,000 miles on the oil, I've noticed the ticking ever so slightly in the background come back on rare occasion. Most of the time it's smooth and quiet. As if the 1 full bottle with it's amount of solids is just barely enough to keep the noise at bay.
That's why I'm not so sure it's just the Ceratec on the metal surfaces, but instead while it is suspended in the oil that does the job. This what tends to lead me to believe it really is flashing in the oil, not inside the journals, but when ejected from the journals.

Concerning the collision of big ends. It may possibly be a combination of both as well. Even if it's clearance are in spec, the oil flashing when ejected could cause it to push over and bump the other rod end. Heck, I dunno.

 

[Condor1970]

All additives to reduce friction.

Then why don't liquid lubes like Prolong, Marvel, or Z-max work? Those are all proven friction modifiers. So, far the only oil additives that work, or those with properly prepared solid lubricants, like graphite or hBn.

Also, regular oil itself tends to subside the tick over time as carbon and contaminants build up. In fact, regular Motorcraft blend tends to subside the tick faster than high end full synthetics. Mainly because contaminants build up even faster, and the oil breaks down quicker with even more friction. And no, those contaminants are not friction modifiers, nor do they "cushion" the parts. I asked Pennzoil about this when I considered switching to PUP. They were very clear, that as contaminants build up, friction actually increases and the engine will actually run rougher and noisier. Which they do.

 

[GT Pony]

What's weird, is I added only 1/2 bottle of Ceratec, and virtually all ticking went away. As it started plating itself over 1,000 miles to the metal, and the concentration of solids in the oil dropped, the ticking then got much louder. Then, I added the other 1/2 bottle, and the ticking went away again completely. Now that I have over 5,000 miles on the oil, I've noticed the ticking ever so slightly in the background come back on rare occasion. Most of the time it's smooth and quiet. As if the 1 full bottle with it's amount of solids is just barely enough to keep the noise at bay. That's why I'm not so sure it's just the Ceratec on the metal surfaces, but instead while it is suspended in the oil that does the job. This what tends to lead me to believe it really is flashing in the oil, not inside the journals, but when ejected from the journals.

You have a 2018 with takes 10 quarts of oil. Ceratec is supposed to be added at one 300 cc bottle per 5 qts of oil, so if you only put in 1/2 a bottle your treatment ratio is only 1/4 of what they recommend. I'm pretty amazed actually at only 150 cc of Ceratec in 10 qts of oil caused the tick to disappear.

And how do you know the concentration of solids in the oil dropped? What solids are you referring to?

Concerning the collision of big ends. It may possibly be a combination of both as well. Even if it's clearance are in spec, the oil flashing when ejected could cause it to push over and bump the other rod end. Heck, I dunno.

I really don't think oil "flashes" and makes ticking noises when it exits a journal bearing. If that was the case, why doesn't that happen to millions of other engines on the road. Journal bearing design is pretty much the same in almost every engine out there.

 

[GT Pony]

Then why don't liquid lubes like Prolong, Marvel, or Z-max work? Those are all proven friction modifiers. So, far the only oil additives that work, or those with properly prepared solid lubricants, like graphite or hBn.

I thought I recall reading somewhere on this forum that someone tried Z-max and it helped.

Also, regular oil itself tends to subside the tick over time as carbon and contaminants build up. In fact, regular Motorcraft blend tends to subside the tick faster than high end full synthetics. Mainly because contaminants build up even faster, and the oil breaks down quicker with even more friction. And no, those contaminants are not friction modifiers, nor do they "cushion" the parts. I asked Pennzoil about this when I considered switching to PUP. They were very clear, that as contaminants build up, friction actually increases and the engine will actually run rougher and noisier. Which they do.

I don't really buy that, because I think what's happening is the anti-friction additives in the oil is bonding to all the surfaces. If you research oil, you'll see that as oil is used the anti-friction additives bond with heat and build up an anti-friction layer on parts. Also, it's knows that with a fresh oil change some of that built up anti-friction layer from the previous oil run can get stripped off the surfaces. That's probably why the ticking slowly goes away as miles are put on the oil (anti-friction layer building up), and then why the ticking returns then the oil is changed (anti-friction layer stripped by new oil). Been may threads on bobistheoilguy about this phenomenon. Not all oils use the same anti-friction additives, so that's why different oils may give different results. The guy you talked to at Pennzoil was not a tribologist.

 

[Condor1970]

You have a 2018 with takes 10 quarts of oil. Ceratec is supposed to be added at one 300 cc bottle per 5 qts of oil, so if you only put in 1/2 a bottle your treatment ratio is only 1/4 of what they recommend. I'm pretty amazed actually at only 150 cc of Ceratec in 10 qts of oil caused the tick to disappear.

And how do you know the concentration of solids in the oil dropped? What solids are you referring to?



I really don't think oil "flashes" and makes ticking noises when it exits a journal bearing. If that was the case, why doesn't that happen to millions of other engines on the road. Journal bearing design is pretty much the same in almost every engine out there.

It really does happen to millions of engines. In fact Chevy even said in their TSB it has been happening for the last 20 years in ALL of their V8 diesel engines. Including most other manufacturers. Ford even says the exact same thing about their Powerstrokes. It's just never really been noticed before, because of the fact that engines until recently really have gotten much quieter. And that's true. I know for a fact that even Cummins regularly make the exact same ticking noise in the bottom end. They're just so dang loud, you can barely here it. The thing with the newer diesels, and now the Coyotes, is their compression ratios are higher and clearances are tighter now than ever before, which I think contributes to all this. In reality, they are making engines to tighter tolerances now than ever before. Proof is in their longevity. You rarely saw engines going 200k, 2 decades ago. Now almost all of them do (with proper maintenance).

Heck, even Cummins 5.0L makes the exact same racket. And there's nothing wrong with them. Chuggin' away as always.

 

[GT Pony]

^^^ Then why don't all of these engines either tick or don't tick if they all have parts within factory specs? What's different between them to make one engine have oil cavitation or the oil "flash" exiting the bearings and another engine not?

The thing with the newer diesels, and now the Coyotes, is their compression ratios are higher and clearances are tighter now than ever before, which I think contributes to all this. In reality, they are making engines to tighter tolerances now than ever before.

Actually, if you research the main and rod bearing clearances of the Coyote to many other engines, and even to older Ford V8s, you'll see they are really not tighter than they've ever been. The Voodoo and GT500 V8s have the same bearing clearances and the Voodoo has high compression, yet you don't hear guys saying the Voodoo has the typewriter tick. There are lots of high compression engines out there that don't tick.

 

[Condor1970]

^^^ Then why don't all of these engines either tick or don't tick if they all have parts within factory specs? What's different between them to make one engine have oil cavitation or the oil "flash" exiting the bearings and another engine not?

OK, now you're going down a road I can't give you an answer to.

Dammit Jim, I'm a Chief Boiler Engineer, not a Tribologist. LOL

There are so many variables between engines. Whether it's the clearance tolerances between big ends, journals, compression ratios, journal diameter and width, oil pressure at various temps, etc. All I know, is seems rather logical to me, that when you start hearing the EXACT same sound from thousands, even millions of engines that have all these mechanical differences in size, bearings, pistons, etc. The one commonality that really does make the most sense in creating a noise like this at specific pressures and temps.... is the oil itself. They all use oil. And oil, no matter what viscosity, will have certain properties that will reveal itself under certain conditions.

 

[GT Pony]

Heck, even Cummins 5.0L makes the exact same racket. And there's nothing wrong with them. Chuggin' away as always.

Those engines sound pretty damn quiet for being a diesel. I really don't hear any typewriter ticking in those videos, only normal diesel engine sounds. They don't sound anything like this. Play both videos at the same time.

 

[Condor1970]

^^^ Holy Cow, are you kidding? You need better speakers. Turn down the bass. The ticking in the background is identical.

And, I do mean IDENTICAL. The randomness is so exact, it's obvious.

 

[GT Pony]

^^^ Holy Cow, are you kidding? You need better speakers. Turn down the bass. The ticking in the background is identical.

And, I do mean IDENTICAL. The randomness is so exact, it's obvious.

If it's there, it's not very prominent - nothing even close to the Coyote tick video I posted. Diesel engines are noise as hell anyway, so hard to say what the noise really is. Guys worrying about barely detectable noises in a diesel are worse than Coyote guys ... lol.

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