second iat sensor location, where?

[hawk232]

Where are people mounting second iat sensors? I will be running meth and want one downstream of the meth injection. the charge pipe on the LPF kit has the MAF about 7-8" from the TB so i will have to put the nozzles right behind that. unlikely it would all be atomized within the charge pipe for me to monitor temps?

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[Kona 18]

You can add it somewhere in the manifold, you will need to drill and tap the manifold. The walls aren't thick enough to get many threads to catch them though. A better option is to delete the EVAP and put the sensor on there since it sits right behind the TB.

 

[hawk232]

i have seen them in the manifold before. i mentioned that to Ken at PBD and he isnt a fan. im really not either. what all is involved with deleting the EVAP? any pics of one installed there? That does sound like it has potential.

 

[Kona 18]

You would buy a EVAP delete plate, drill and tap it for your sensor, then stick it in the place of the EVAP solenoid. That or pull the solenoid out and see if the diameter is the same as your sensor, if it is then tap the plastic, put some teflon on the sensor and thread it in.

 

[ahl395]

The VMP IAT sensor/harness kit is what's typically used
https://www.teambeefcakeracing.com/...Z2uwly4uLr0oP0ZvSzx8__bgbzaTIEOhoCzp0QAvD_BwE

The threads on the sensor are surprisingly large even though the sensor element itself isnt that big. I haven't measured but I would guess that it would not fit on that EVAP delete plate. Drilling out the actual EVAP hole in the manifold and tapping it may work, but it also may be too deep that the sensor element wouldn't be right in the air stream. You'd have to take a look and hold it up and see how it would all line up.

Plenty of people do it but I didn't like the idea of mounting the sensor in an intake runner either. Seems like it would disrupt the airflow to that cylinder. If there is room between the valley and the bottom of the mani, mounting it on the floor of the intake manifold could be an option that wouldn't disrupt the airflow as much. But it would depend on your manifold if there's space underneath.

Tricky situation with your MAF placement. Sorry I'm not familiar with the system but Is moving the MAF further from the TB a possibility (with a custom pipe)?

Another question, are you moving the IAT sensor to get "actual" IAT temps or are you using it to see if the meth is spraying by looking for temp drop? If you're trying to get "actual" temps, further from the nozzle is best. If you're just trying to see if it's spraying then you could mount it a few inches after the nozzle before the TB. It is better for that purpose to be honest with you, from my experience the sensor is NOT as accurate as the MAF. The temp readings can be off and the sensor can get some "heat soak". It's best used as an indicator the meth is spraying and an approximate IAT number rather than an actual IAT readout.

Here is the size of the IAT sensor if you need it. The threads are NPT but I don't remember what size.

 

[Roh92cp]

You would also need a dedicated standalone system to read the data from the sensor. I used Zietronix ZT-2 system and it's compatible with the NGauge to pull up the PID and see the data from the sensor. I have a Whipple which has 2 unused 1/8" NPT ports in the intake runners, but of course most IAT sensors come in 3/8" NPT. AEM has a 1/8" NPT sensor that has the same impedance scale as the one Zeitronix uses, so thats what I did to get true actual temps the cylinder is seeing.

I also spray meth and I've tried as much as 30 GPH single nozzle which is equivalent to 3 625 ml/mn nozzles. IAT drop is not significant at all which was very surprising to me, but the octane affect is real.

I've also testing the MAF sensor and agree with ahl395 that is not accurate at all times, and can lag in response to immediate changes in temps. I went as far as running 2 different standalone AIT systems at the same time to confirm accuracy on post and pre blower temps, which is how I found the MAF is not always true.

 

[hawk232]

second sensor is solely for monitoring the meth. this is the first i have heard of needing a standalone system for reading the data?

I am going to check with Justin at LPF about MAF placement. there is definitely room for the MAF to move away from the TB but it gets closer and closer to a curve. does anyone know what the minimum distance from a curve to the MAF needs to be?

 

[ahl395]

You would also need a dedicated standalone system to read the data from the sensor. I used Zietronix ZT-2 system and it's compatible with the NGauge to pull up the PID and see the data from the sensor. I have a Whipple which has 2 unused 1/8" NPT ports in the intake runners, but of course most IAT sensors come in 3/8" NPT. AEM has a 1/8" NPT sensor that has the same impedance scale as the one Zeitronix uses, so thats what I did to get true actual temps the cylinder is seeing.

I also spray meth and I've tried as much as 30 GPH single nozzle which is equivalent to 3 625 ml/mn nozzles. IAT drop is not significant at all which was very surprising to me, but the octane affect is real.

I've also testing the MAF sensor and agree with ahl395 that is not accurate at all times, and can lag in resonator to immediate changes in temps. I went as far as running 2 different standalone AIT systems at the same time to confirm accuracy on post and pre blower temps, which is how I found the MAF is not always true.

Where did you find a 30 GPH nozzle? The biggest I'm aware of is the 14GPH from DevilsOwn.

What I meant was I actually found the MAF more accurate than the VMP IAT sensor. Although I have no way of testing the accuracy of the MAF itself, just comparing it to ambient though showed that the MAF was more accurate than the separate IAT sensor. I definitely can believe the MAF isnt 100% either.

second sensor is solely for monitoring the meth. this is the first i have heard of needing a standalone system for reading the data?

I am going to check with Justin at LPF about MAF placement. there is definitely room for the MAF to move away from the TB but it gets closer and closer to a curve. does anyone know what the minimum distance from a curve to the MAF needs to be?

Its not required but if you want to be able to have more than one IAT reading it is. When using the VMP IAT it replaces the MAF for IAT reading. Meaning you can't have both. If so then you need the secondary system that works with the nGauge and then the nGauge can read off the second IAT sensor(s) while the car continues to show the MAF reading.

I'm not sure about the MAF placement but I would also ask your tuner their opinion on it since it may change readings. Lund preferred my MAF in my intercooler (Procharger) versus in a pipe but they've told other people the opposite.

If you're just using it to monitor the meth I dont see any problem mounting it close to the nozzle personally.

 

[Roh92cp]

Where did you find a 30 GPH nozzle? The biggest I'm aware of is the 14GPH from DevilsOwn.

What I meant was I actually found the MAF more accurate than the VMP IAT sensor. Although I have no way of testing the accuracy of the MAF itself, just comparing it to ambient though showed that the MAF was more accurate than the separate IAT sensor. I definitely can believe the MAF isnt 100% either.



Its not required but if you want to be able to have more than one IAT reading it is. When using the VMP IAT it replaces the MAF for IAT reading. Meaning you can't have both. If so then you need the secondary system that works with the nGauge and then the nGauge can read off the second IAT sensor(s) while the car continues to show the MAF reading.

I'm not sure about the MAF placement but I would also ask your tuner their opinion on it since it may change readings. Lund preferred my MAF in my intercooler (Procharger) versus in a pipe but they've told other people the opposite.

If you're just using it to monitor the meth I dont see any problem mounting it close to the nozzle personally.

Rodney at AIS Alcohol Injection Systems used to have large nozzles for the twin screw setups. He had learned that spraying through the screws required far greater amount of meth for the same cooling affect of post injection. I cant remember the new name of his company but I know he has since changed company name.

 

[Roh92cp]

Found it, it's now called ProMeth

https://prometh.com

 

[hawk232]

Would there be any reason for me to retain the stock maf iat vs using the new reading? I gather what y’all are saying about it not being as accurate but how much does it actually matter?

 

[Kona 18]

Would there be any reason for me to retain the stock maf iat vs using the new reading? I gather what y’all are saying about it not being as accurate but how much does it actually matter?

There are IAT multiplier tables in the Spark section of your tune. If the ECM doesn't know the IAT's are cooler(which allow for more spark) then it will run it's normal spark value and you'll have to wait for the knock logic to add spark over time. This is less than ideal since you have to wait for power you could of had when you first went WOT. By splitting the MAF and having IAT read from the sensor in the manifold the ECM will know what the true IATs are(cooling from the meth) and allow it to properly adjust spark up front. This will give you a car that can be faster on meth, but not reliant on it when you run out.

 

[ahl395]

Rodney at AIS Alcohol Injection Systems used to have large nozzles for the twin screw setups. He had learned that spraying through the screws required far greater amount of meth for the same cooling affect of post injection. I cant remember the new name of his company but I know he has since changed company name.

Found it, it's now called ProMeth

https://prometh.com

Awesome, thanks for the tip. I have looked at Prometh before I liked their direct port injection kits. For whatever reason though I never looked more into their nozzles. They have a crazy amount of nozzle selection compared to other companies and I like that the nozzle is recessed. I just got my pipe modified for a dual nozzle setup, had I known about this I would have switched to one of their nozzles. Thanks again.

Would there be any reason for me to retain the stock maf iat vs using the new reading? I gather what y’all are saying about it not being as accurate but how much does it actually matter?

No reason to retain the MAF IAT reading unless you wanted to compare before/after meth temps, that's all. The ECM will work off the new IAT sensor just fine. This is how I have mine. Being dead on accurate does not really matter.

There are IAT multiplier tables in the Spark section of your tune. If the ECM doesn't know the IAT's are cooler(which allow for more spark) then it will run it's normal spark value and you'll have to wait for the knock logic to add spark over time. This is less than ideal since you have to wait for power you could of had when you first went WOT. By splitting the MAF and having IAT read from the sensor in the manifold the ECM will know what the true IATs are(cooling from the meth) and allow it to properly adjust spark up front. This will give you a car that can be faster on meth, but not reliant on it when you run out.

This is true, however depending on your tune and setup it may not make a huge difference. Ask your tuner at what temp it starts pulling timing. For me timing was not pulled until 130-140F IAT which I might only see on the hottest summer days anyway.

 

[Kona 18]

This is true, however depending on your tune and setup it may not make a huge difference. Ask your tuner at what temp it starts pulling timing. For me timing was not pulled until 130-140F IAT which I might only see on the hottest summer days anyway.

The table can do more than pull timing, it can be used to add timing. So you can set it up to add timing when your IAT's are cooler and your octane is increased from the meth.

 

[ahl395]

The table can do more than pull timing, it can be used to add timing. So you can set it up to add timing when your IAT's are cooler and your octane is increased from the meth.

Yes for sure. I just mean that depending on the tune it probably is not set up that way unless you request it.

If you live somewhere that weather fluctuates alot between seasons it may be hard to find the correct temps to use, which is why I didn't opt to do this. For instance a 100F during the summer with meth would be an acceptable IAT but during the winter 20F would be acceptable. So it is hard to draw lines on what temps to add/pull timing at to keep it useful. Hence why i believe most tunes are set up to run full timing until temps reach the threshold (130-140F for me)

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