S550 may be eliminated sooner rather then later...

[Gregs24]

NOx is definitely a pollutant.

CO2??? Some scientists believe our plants are at an almost starvation level for this gas right now. CO2 is .04% of our atmosphere. If that is enough to cause warming then 1 gallon of red paint will turn Lake Michigan red.

Now Carbon monoxide or "CO" is a pollutant. catalytic converters remove 90% of HC, CO, NOx and other pollutants from the exhaust of gas engines. Cars today are so clean it is almost unbelievable.

When I was a kid Lake Erie was burning from all the toxic crap. Today it is safe to eat the fish from that lake.

When I was a kid I could not see Colerain from Wilder. Wilder is on a ridge in KY, Colerain is a high spot in Cincinnati OH about 25 air miles away. Today I can see that hill.

So what are you in Europe doing wrong that kids are dying from all the pollution?

My guess is your environment is cleaner in spades, just like ours, and you are being told lies. Just like we are.

You are talking to yourself - have fun !

Sponsored

 

[Gregs24]

Yup. IC fuels are not going anywhere. Just take one stroll down to any shore area and check out the number of boats (100's with 200-400 gallon tanks). Boats don't turn over nearly as fast as cars and I only know of one decent effort to create an electric boat in the low 20's in size, and it's range is a lot worse, comparatively, than IC vs EV cars.

Agree. The main topic was ICE cars but there is no doubt ICE commercial vehicles will be around longer. However electric aircraft, hydrogen powered boats, hydrogen powered domestic heating etc etc are all being developed.

 

[Gregs24]

The Arabs have arguably the largest oil reserves. Emirates airlines has commercial jet orders out 50 years. If oil was running out there is no way they would place those kind of deposits on future aircraft.

Have you noticed what has been happening in global air transport recently ?

Emirates are cancelling remaining A380 orders and orders for all new planes have fallen off a cliff. It will slowly return but nobody is expecting it to return to normal for a long time.

If you think air travel will be fossil fuel based for ever you are in dream land. Airbus are already running trials on electrified engines on planes in the air. It doesn't matter that the 'Arabs' as you refer to them have plenty of oil, only Airbus and Boeing make planes in any number outside Russia and China so they will buy what is available.

Oil is NOT running out, use of it is being phased out gradually

Electric flight - Zero emission - Airbus

 

[Gregs24]

Every year is a million years from another time.

They said in 1930 that oil would run out in 50 years. In 1980 they said oil would run out in 20 years.

In 1990 they said NY would be under water in 10 years, oil would be gone in 30

Do you see a pattern?

You are not seriously trying to suggest that oil is being 'made' deep down in the earth on a continuing basis to keep up with consumption are you ? Please tell me you aren't. Please !!

 

[Ace]

CO2??? Some scientists believe our plants are at an almost starvation level for this gas right now. CO2 is .04% of our atmosphere. If that is enough to cause warming then 1 gallon of red paint will turn Lake Michigan red.

You just can't take scales that we use in our daily lives, say ".04% sounds pretty low to me" and compare that to chemical compositions or any scientific scale. 1 mg of hydrocyianic acid per kg of your body will kill you, which is 0.0001% of your body mass. We learned about chemicals that can get in the air like PCB that result in cancer if you were are exposed to a few hundred nanograms regulary. Even the human body only works because of lots of stuff that is way lower than .04% of the mass has to be in a natural balance, and result in illness or death if not balanced anymore.

Every year is a million years from another time.

They said in 1930 that oil would run out in 50 years. In 1980 they said oil would run out in 20 years.

In 1990 they said NY would be under water in 10 years, oil would be gone in 30

Do you see a pattern?

This only works because they invented new methods of getting oil like Fracking, where nobody can say for sure how how that will impect the environment on the long run. Getting rid of dependency on oil is without a doubt a good thing, especially for Europe who is mostly depending on eastern states.

 

[ice445]

Have you noticed what has been happening in global air transport recently ?

Emirates are cancelling remaining A380 orders and orders for all new planes have fallen off a cliff. It will slowly return but nobody is expecting it to return to normal for a long time.

If you think air travel will be fossil fuel based for ever you are in dream land. Airbus are already running trials on electrified engines on planes in the air. It doesn't matter that the 'Arabs' as you refer to them have plenty of oil, only Airbus and Boeing make planes in any number outside Russia and China so they will buy what is available.

Oil is NOT running out, use of it is being phased out gradually

Electric flight - Zero emission - Airbus

Mainstream Electric flight is a pipe dream with current battery densities. Jet fuel is vastly superior in its energy output per pound. Once battery densities double for the same weight, maybe. But with current tech it's just not realistic for the normal ranges, I doubt you could even get from one end of the US to the other, let alone somewhere like Australia. I'm not saying jet fuel will NEVER be replaced, but it's the one thing that's unlikely to be replaced any time in the near future.

Regardless, lots of talk lately that we've possibly hit peak oil prematurely due to the pandemic, it's causing a bit of a shake up in a lot of industries for sure. If it's true, it means we're on the downward slope of oil consumption. Oil will never go away, but being phased out in mainstream transportation and fixed energy production is inevitable.

 

[Gregs24]

Mainstream Electric flight is a pipe dream with current battery densities. Jet fuel is vastly superior in its energy output per pound. Once battery densities double for the same weight, maybe. But with current tech it's just not realistic for the normal ranges, I doubt you could even get from one end of the US to the other, let alone somewhere like Australia. I'm not saying jet fuel will NEVER be replaced, but it's the one thing that's unlikely to be replaced any time in the near future.

Regardless, lots of talk lately that we've possibly hit peak oil prematurely due to the pandemic, it's causing a bit of a shake up in a lot of industries for sure. If it's true, it means we're on the downward slope of oil consumption. Oil will never go away, but being phased out in mainstream transportation and fixed energy production is inevitable.

Battery electric is but one option - probably limited to GA and other light aircraft where it already exists. Hydrogen is probably more likely to become mainstream quicker as the weight is not an issue. Airbus are suggesting 2030 as a realistic target including the hydrogen generation and infrastructure. Clearly this relies on green hydrogen production which is also included in the infrastructure plan. That really isn't very far away.

Hydrogen - Zero emission - Airbus

EasyJet partner takes ‘crucial step’ towards electric plane | E&T Magazine (theiet.org)

 

[shogun32]

You are not seriously trying to suggest that oil is being 'made' deep down in the earth on a continuing basis to keep up with consumption are you ?

well then doctor, please provide a plausible explanation for why oil wells are filling back up. Are the greenies stealing crude barrels and pouring it back in?

 

[Gregs24]

well then doctor, please provide a plausible explanation for why oil wells are filling back up. Are the greenies stealing crude barrels and pouring it back in?

Were you aware that oil is a liquid and moves about once some of it is removed? You are correct by the way, I am entitled to call myself doctor, although I suspect you were being sarcastic.

Oil formation - Energy Education

Are Oil Wells Recharging Themselves? | OilPrice.com

 

[Norm Peterson]

ICE cars (not commercial vehicles currently because the alternatives don't exist) Each country is slightly different but in the UK it is ICE in 2030 and PHEV's in 2035. Denmark is ICE in 2024.

Why don't alternatives exist, if they're supposed to exist for the individual car owner? Especially given that commercial vehicles run at far higher duty cycles in terms of both power required and hours on duty.

The mandate isn't arbitrary as the reasons are clear why it is being done.

Mandated timelines and schedules are inherently arbitrary.

To reduce CO2 emissions and pollution, especially in cities where NOx and particulates are a real health hazard.

I get this much. But we need the whole picture here. For one thing, I suspect that diesel power has found wider acceptance in Europe. Don't know anything about heating and power generation there.

There is a case going through the courts in the UK where the death of an asthmatic child is being linked to illegal levels of NOx and particulates on the road where she lived. Europeans may be more concerned about our local environment that some in the US ?

I do feel sorry for the family, but anybody who thinks that mandated limits can be satisfied everywhere at all times (or even most of the time) is simply delusional.

Genuinely of all the people I know hardly anybody is concerned about the ICE ban other than petrolheads, and even I (as one of those petrolheads) know that although it will eventually impact me it is the right thing to do. So no - there is good support for it, especially as the alternatives are entirely functional.

The right thing to do falls under the concept of "ALARA" - As Low As Reasonably Achievable". I used to work in a segment of the power industry where that was the official attitude, with the understanding that guaranteeing "zero-point-zero" would be impossible at any level of expense.

I see similarity here.


Norm

 

[Gregs24]

Why don't alternatives exist, if they're supposed to exist for the individual car owner? Especially given that commercial vehicles run at far higher duty cycles in terms of both power required and hours on duty.



Mandated timelines and schedules are inherently arbitrary.



I get this much. But we need the whole picture here. For one thing, I suspect that diesel power has found wider acceptance in Europe. Don't know anything about heating and power generation there.



I do feel sorry for the family, but anybody who thinks that mandated limits can be satisfied everywhere at all times (or even most of the time) is simply delusional.



The right thing to do falls under the concept of "ALARA" - As Low As Reasonably Achievable". I used to work in a segment of the power industry where that was the official attitude, with the understanding that guaranteeing "zero-point-zero" would be impossible at any level of expense.

I see similarity here.


Norm

Well Tesla are working on BEV trucks but with limited success so far and BEV vans are now available in Europe. Hydrogen fuel cells for trains. There are a range of solutions developing but the private car is one where the best fit solutions are available already.

The mandate for the change is not arbitrary, but the timeline chosen is different between countries and so clearly they all have their own reasons for this.

Yes diesel is more prevalent in Europe which has certainly not helped as the NOx and particulates are worse from this fuel but petrol has it's own issues, the V8 Mustang has after all just been fitted with particulate filters. I did post earlier about power generation for the UK but to recap about 40% gas, a very small amount of coal (being phased out) and the rest is wind / nuclear / PV and hydro. Obviously some other countries have different splits in Europe.

Agree about mandated limits, but it was more the point that we really don't want to be breathing in that rubbish. Lead was banned from fuel (for very good reasons) and that is an entirely met legal limit, so not all targets are delusional. CFC's were banned and the ozone layer is recovering, again a huge success.

The only problem with ALARA is if that safe limit is known. There are substances where there are no reasonable limits because any level is harmful, such as dioxins. There are NOx limits set in Europe but they are a compromise even now as to what is genuinely safe and what is achievable. They are achievable, as many cities manage this, so I think that makes them reasonable, however are they low enough yet ? Time will tell on that.

 

[shogun32]

CFC's were banned and the ozone layer is recovering, again a huge success.

except the claimed causation was complete fraud.

 

[K4fxd]

CFC's were banned and the ozone layer is recovering, again a huge success.

https://earthobservatory.nasa.gov/images/147465/large-deep-antarctic-ozone-hole-in-2020

On September 20, 2020, the annual ozone hole reached its peak area at 24.8 million square kilometers (9.6 million square miles), roughly three times the size of the continental United States. ...Nov 1, 2020

CFC's have or had nothing to do with the ozone hole over Antarctica. The hole is still there, only difference is the media is not playing chicken little about it anymore.

DDT another bad ban, by not using it millions of people are dying of mosquito spread diseases.

What will the next crisis be? Oh wait, CO2.......

 

[shogun32]

What will the next crisis be? Oh wait, CO2.......

yup. I'm a big friend of the environment. I drive a V8 so I can put as much CO2 into the environment as I can (frees the 'C' from being cruelly and inhumanely trapped in hydrogen matrices) in order to feed the trees. And I rid the planet of ever more oil so that society will have no choice but to adopt wind-power and hamster-power for their energy needs.

 

[NoVaGT]

Wow - it's going to be hard having a reasoned discussion with that attitude


I did but to help you out here it is again

NO_Electric-Vehicles-Initiative_SkovKristensenLaugeThomassenJakobsen.pdf (jiip.eu)

The lights haven't gone out so it is working !

You do realise it is possible to disagree with you and still be right. I'm not the one ignoring the 10% EV's driving around Norway that are not all abandoned at the side of the road because they can't be charged and all the poor Norwegians sitting in the dark at night next to a fire to keep warm.

It doesn't make you any less of a man to admit that in Norway currently the transition to EV's IS WORKING.

You may know better than all of the Norwegians as to the apocalypse that is about to befall them but they don't seem too worried. Maybe you should give them the benefit of your knowledge and warn them ??

Did you even read your link?

It has 0 information on any proposed or in-process increases to Norway's electrical power production/distribution.

Are you just being deliberately obtuse at this point?

And in case you missed it, another poster calculated that Norway can handle 30% EVs on the road. So their trouble lies in their future. 100% EVs (out-lawing ICEs) is a fantasy in Norway.

Is it working? Sure. For now.

Sponsored