Road and Track Article on the PP2 - It's not a track car

[H@mmer]

I don't understand why all the premium options are mandatory when ordering a PP2... I got my base PP 17 GT because I wanted a more stripped down pony car... I have leather, heated/cooled seats, nav etc in my 2017 F150

Precisely.
I didn't want to afford a GT350 (even though I lust after them daily), but I don't want a luxury car. That's what my Lariat is for.
Hell, I wish I could have bought an even more stripped down version. No power seats, thinner glass, less sound deadener, less insulation, etc.


Oh well. I'll just have to do it myself

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[NoVaGT]

Ford called it a Track Pack if I remember back in 2012. Got their butt whipped on the track......

Actually, in 2011 just as the 2012 TP Mustang was debuting, there was a very famous head-to-head done against a 2012 BMW M4, and on a road-course, the TP Mustang was just 1/10th of a second slower than the BMW.....for, like, 1/3rd the price or something. Back in the S197 days, the Track Pack was really an amazing deal. Yes, it was still a live-axle, but they did a hell of a job making it handle a road-course well.

Time has marched on, and the very consistent complaint during testing, is that the rear-end of the S550 PP cars feels disconnected, and over-all the car has a pogo sensation to it when pushed in corners.

I'm not sure, but I would hope that products like Steedas rear subframe "stop the hop" kits solve a lot of that. Plus, American Muscle has a deal for Koni Yellows and progressive rate lowering springs that is amazing (less that $1K), and that should also have a huge impact on the PP car's handling, bring it closer to the 1Le.

I think OEM, the 1le Alpha Camaro can't be beat on a road-course. You can throw money at a PP car and get close or even better, but that isn't the value that it should be from Ford.

I'll mention again I think Ford is dropping the ball all over the place, with the new management.

 

[Hack]

Actually, in 2011 just as the 2012 TP Mustang was debuting, there was a very famous head-to-head done against a 2012 BMW M4, and on a road-course, the TP Mustang was just 1/10th of a second slower than the BMW.....for, like, 1/3rd the price or something. Back in the S197 days, the Track Pack was really an amazing deal. Yes, it was still a live-axle, but they did a hell of a job making it handle a road-course well.

Time has marched on, and the very consistent complaint during testing, is that the rear-end of the S550 PP cars feels disconnected, and over-all the car has a pogo sensation to it when pushed in corners.

I'm not sure, but I would hope that products like Steedas rear subframe "stop the hop" kits solve a lot of that. Plus, American Muscle has a deal for Koni Yellows and progressive rate lowering springs that is amazing (less that $1K), and that should also have a huge impact on the PP car's handling, bring it closer to the 1Le.

I think OEM, the 1le Alpha Camaro can't be beat on a road-course. You can throw money at a PP car and get close or even better, but that isn't the value that it should be from Ford.

I'll mention again I think Ford is dropping the ball all over the place, with the new management.

Good post. I remember that comparison with the M4. Ford worked really hard on the live axle and they had it turning great - especially on smooth surfaces. The IRS was a huge upgrade IMO, but here in MN there aren't many smooth roads. The biggest difference is the compliance and grip on rough surfaces.

 

[NoVaGT]

...but the PP2 can't beat the 1LE so using the $8500 difference between a base GT and a 301A PP2 as the benchmark to 'beat' a 1LE isn't really valid. I *think* he was saying you would come out ahead of the cost of a 1LE.


I'm sure one can spend $8500 on parts for a base GT to beat a PP2 on the track. A 1LE? That might be a bit more.

Figure about $3000 on a good set of wheels and tires (and the wheels will no doubt be much lighter than the PP2)
About $1k on the PP brakes, or less if you get lucky like several have
Maybe $2k on suspension, if that? FR3 track shocks/struts for ~$580, good springs for ~$220, steeda shock mounts for $200, sway bar upgrade maybe $300, cradle lockout kit $220, PP1 STB/cowl brace/K-brace is sub $400. That's just under $2k and is likely beefier than the PP2 suspension. Still have $2,500 to play with, of which you can use to do the 3.73 torsen conversion if you really want to, add coolers, etc.

I can see around $6K in parts, and let's just assume there's some more that's missing, like suspension links, bushings, etc. Then there's labor to install that stuff. Then there's the Torsen LSD, radiator, hoses, and software change, and certainly more I'm missing too. One needs to consider warranty issues in that mix too.

So, I'm just saying that for $8,500, you're not going to get a base GT close to the performance and spec of a PP2 car. Let alone beat an SS 1le.

I went interwebs shopping for an SS yesterday, and Good Lord but they aren't cheap, and Chevy doesn't offer good financing at all, starting at 9.9%. Hell, Ford is doing 4.9% on 2018s, and should be at 0% on them in a month or so.

 

[NoVaGT]

Good post. I remember that comparison with the M4. Ford worked really hard on the live axle and they had it turning great - especially on smooth surfaces. The IRS was a huge upgrade IMO, but here in MN there aren't many smooth roads. The biggest difference is the compliance and grip on rough surfaces.

Yep.

I went from a 2012 TP to a 2016 PP, and the ride versus handling is amazingly better. Still, it does sound like Chevy has had more time to get it's 4-wheel independent suspension better than Ford at this point. That Alpha chassis is just amazing.

A member here shared a link showing that starting in 2018, Ford is using better shocks, and did something to the rear sub-frame bushings to stiffen it up, for all the Mustang suspensions. But I haven't found any other information or testing to explain the dynamic difference, or corroborate those changes. The 2018 PP1 car I drove didn't feel any different than my 2016, but then I didn't get any chance to push it in a corner.

For around $1500.00 and some dirty hands, I know I could have my 2016 PP car really tight.

 

[Norm Peterson]

Now the track rats come out of the woodwork complaining. There have been a lot of socialists posting on these threads saying that they don't coolers (or even for it to be an option on any GT) because they don't "need" it, so they don't want you to have the ability to have it. I guess they won this round and Ford made the PP2 accordingly. It's apparent that the high Mustang sales and lack of vocal demand for coolers have made them a low priority for Ford. They could easily have put coolers on it if the demand was there.

Not sure what you're trying to say here, but the political label isn't helping anything.

Any demand for additional cooling isn't something that should have to come from vocal customers when the need for it was already known from PP! experience. That's if there's even an avenue for that kind of feedback that gets taken seriously.


There's more than one level of seriousness among track day drivers, so it doesn't seem unreasonable to consider that there might be more than one level of track day seriousness when it comes to the offerings of various OE car mfrs.


Norm

 

[garagelogic]

Actually, in 2011 just as the 2012 TP Mustang was debuting, there was a very famous head-to-head done against a 2012 BMW M4, and on a road-course, the TP Mustang was just 1/10th of a second slower than the BMW.....for, like, 1/3rd the price or something. Back in the S197 days, the Track Pack was really an amazing deal. Yes, it was still a live-axle, but they did a hell of a job making it handle a road-course well.

Time has marched on, and the very consistent complaint during testing, is that the rear-end of the S550 PP cars feels disconnected, and over-all the car has a pogo sensation to it when pushed in corners.

I'm not sure, but I would hope that products like Steedas rear subframe "stop the hop" kits solve a lot of that. Plus, American Muscle has a deal for Koni Yellows and progressive rate lowering springs that is amazing (less that $1K), and that should also have a huge impact on the PP car's handling, bring it closer to the 1Le.

I think OEM, the 1le Alpha Camaro can't be beat on a road-course. You can throw money at a PP car and get close or even better, but that isn't the value that it should be from Ford.

I'll mention again I think Ford is dropping the ball all over the place, with the new management.

The new Ford CEO is there to make Ford financially viable for the long term. They are focused on financial performance, not vehicle performance.

 

[martinjlm]

Yikes people are modding 1LEs?

Folks are modding ZR1s :shrug:

 

[morgande]

The VEM (Barnes) and the Vehicle Line Chief botched this one badly. The whole package is pointless without the coolers. Do it right or don't do it.

Pretty much.

I think if Ford intentionally hobbled the PP2 it was unwise. That being said, they probably figured it was "good enough". I'm not sure I buy the theory that they were afraid of cutting into GT350 sales. GT350 is different enough, it has different body panels, different seats, different engine, different transmission. It's a much more different car than tires and cooling.

You don't put cup tires on a car that isn't a track car. You just don't. Cup tires are not for daily driving. They just aren't. The notion that the PP2 car is intended for daily driving is flat out lying. (EDIT: POLITICAL RANT REMOVED PER FORUM RULES)

I KNOW why Ford did this. And so does everyone else. We need to stop trying to justify the WHY and just acknowledge the fact that Ford did neuter this car. Ford was never interested in building a competitor to the 1LE. This is fact. This PP2 car wasn't supposed to be here. And you can bet that the original vision for whatever enthusiast(s) at the company who petition to have the car built DID intended for it to have proper cooling. Just didn't make it out the door.

Having said that, the PP2 is still a good option for what it is. If you don't want to hunt for a Shelby that doesn't have ADM, and or you don't want to pay a premium for the Shelby name, you should STILL be able to go out and by a track ready Mustang from the factory without all the nonsense. GM sells them, Ford should too. For right now, that car is the PP2. It's a shame Ford didn't seal the deal on this though. It's a shame the Ford GT has a damn Ecoboost. It's a shame Ford is about to jettison every car besides the mustang from its lineup. They make dumb decisions all the time. Guess you just can't fix stupid.

 

[Norm Peterson]

I can see around $6K in parts, and let's just assume there's some more that's missing, like suspension links, bushings, etc. Then there's labor to install that stuff. Then there's the Torsen LSD, radiator, hoses, and software change, and certainly more I'm missing too. One needs to consider warranty issues in that mix too.

So, I'm just saying that for $8,500, you're not going to get a base GT close to the performance and spec of a PP2 car. Let alone beat an SS 1le.

Other than the warranty, it might well be possible for an advanced DIY'er to get a lower-trim GT very close to the PP2's track performance. It probably wouldn't ride as nicely as a PP2, and one might want to be able to manual switch a few things between 'track' and 'street'. Then again, the sort of person who's ready to jump in and do all the work himself probably doesn't put as high a priority on comfort as the guy who wants to be able to go down to his local Ford store and buy one off the lot that's equipped for street up to light or maybe moderate track duty.

Considering that some folks have swapped Magnum XL transmissions into earlier-year Mustangs, I wouldn't place an $8500 limit on a DIY mod budget. Or not think that at least one of the available Magnum XL gearsets is hands-down better for the track than what you get in the MT82D4.


Norm

 

[NoVaGT]

You don't put cup tires on a car that isn't a track car. You just don't. Cup tires are not for daily driving. They just aren't. The notion that the PP2 car is intended for daily driving is flat out lying.

Well, Cup tires are DOT road-legal tires. They're compromises, something that can get you to a track, and then work (well enough) on the track, and then get you home from the track.

Let's not get too crazy with the idea they're track tires. Real track tires aren't DOT legal, and are not driven to the road course.

Like... Donald Trump #45 LYING.......

 

[NoVaGT]

Other than the warranty, it might well be possible for an advanced DIY'er to......

I wasn't talking about DIYers, rather the idea that $8,500 can make a base GT as good or better than a PP2. Warranty and labor are absolutely part of the picture.

Of course each person posting in this thread are posting from their own basic idea, so this all goes nowhere.

 

[morgande]

Well, Cup tires are DOT road-legal tires. They're compromises, something that can get you to a track, and then work (well enough) on the track, and then get you home from the track.

Let's not get too crazy with the idea they're track tires. Real track tires aren't DOT legal, and are not driven to the road course.

I didn't say slicks. I am not saying these are racing tires. Yes those Cup 2 tires are DOT legal. But they are legal in the sense of...I'm about to do take my car on track and I don't have a trailer. I need to drive it TO the track and BACK home again and I only have 1 set of tires. Mickey Thompson also sells a set of drag tires that are DOT approved. Yes you can drive them on the street...for same reason you would drive a set of Cup 2 tires on the street. You need to drive the car to the track.

 

[w3rkn]

Prove it.

Show it.

List it all. With pricing.

Make a PP3 that will be as good or better than a PP2, for $6500.00

A Mustang GT cost $37,000 dollars bro... :doh:

Now add the GT350 upgrade kit I mentioned at $4,800 (superior to PP2) and another $1,200 for cooling components (mishimoto?) (superior to PP2), and however much you want to spend for Steeda or Ford Performance suspension (superior to PP2), and still be cheaper.

You will end up with a better suited and higher performance and focused track car, than a PP2. The only thing you give up is magenride… which may, or may not be important to some, as an all out track focused car.



I myself will not be on the track, as much as I will be on Wayne County roads, so for me magneride is a necessity... and I will just go aftermarket coolers, if I need cooling for the track. And why I wish MR was a stand-alone option, because I would destroy the Ford Performance catalog with my credit card.

I wish Ford offered the GT350 upgrade kit as a $4k option on the GT's, they would make out like bandits.

 

[Silver Bullitt]

A Mustang GT cost $37,000 dollars bro... :doh:

Now add the GT350 upgrade kit I mentioned at $4,800 (superior to PP2) and another $1,200 for cooling components (mishimoto?) (superior to PP2), and however much you want to spend for Steeda or Ford Performance suspension (superior to PP2), and still be cheaper.

You will end up with a better suited and higher performance and focused track car, than a PP2. The only thing you give up is magenride… which may, or may not be important to some, as an all out track focused car.



I myself will not be on the track, as much as I will be on Wayne County roads, so for me magneride is a necessity... and I will just go aftermarket coolers, if I need cooling for the track. And why I wish MR was a stand-alone option, because I would destroy the Ford Performance catalog with my credit card.

I wish Ford offered the GT350 upgrade kit as a $4k option on the GT's, they would make out like bandits.

You forgot another $3K for wheels/tires.

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