Road and Track Article on the PP2 - It's not a track car

[Hack]

So they put the Mustang last - out of 9 cars. I for one can understand and forgive that very easily. There are a lot of cars that are not as good as those other 8 cars. And it all depends on your criteria.

For instance, I wouldn't buy a car with fewer than 8 cylinders and I wouldn't spend more than $70k on a car. Boom, Mustang wins based on my criteria. Many other people don't care and have very different criteria than I do. Doesn't mean I'm wrong in what I like.

On edit: the Alpha V6 and the Porsche flat 6 could be exceptions to my 8 cylinder rule, but I also don't want a DCT or automatic and I don't want an SUV. So they are still out...

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[martinjlm]

So they put the Mustang last - out of 9 cars. I for one can understand and forgive that very easily. There are a lot of cars that are not as good as those other 8 cars. And it all depends on your criteria.

For instance, I wouldn't buy a car with fewer than 8 cylinders and I wouldn't spend more than $70k on a car. Boom, Mustang wins based on my criteria. Many other people don't care and have very different criteria than I do. Doesn't mean I'm wrong in what I like.

On edit: the Alpha V6 and the Porsche flat 6 could be exceptions to my 8 cylinder rule, but I also don't want a DCT or automatic and I don't want an SUV. So they are still out...

You make some very good points here. When trying to evaluate so many very good but very different vehicles back-to-back-to-back, the basis for comparison has to change. Some vehicles are going to excel at things that others suck at because they were never intended to do that. Can’t imagine how one can subjectively filter out the things that clearly don’t matter for one vehicle that happen to be the reason for being for the next one.

 

[jake_zx2]

Honestly, I feel like the cars weren't exactly looked at subjectively. The Mustang placed poorly because it wasn't as good as the GT350, albeit being better than the Kia. The Stinger placed better because it's great for a Kia, albeit being drastically worse than an M3 (it's primary competitor). The Stelvio placed incredibly well simply because it's incredible for an SUV. But objectively, against all the other cars in this group, the ZR1 and Mustang should have at least been where the Stelvio and Stinger are respectively, with perhaps the M5 being between the 2 or below them, and the type R probably should've been lower as well (a fun car FOR a FWD econobox, but overall not a great car)

 

[morgande]

The Mustang placed poorly because its performance on track was due to its tires. In the hands of Randy P, the car performed well, as you expect an overall good car with 'cheater' tires to do well on track with a pro behind the wheel.

In the hands of the rest of the panel, they probably felt that other cars would have produced similar 'style' results if they had cup2 tires on them. It didn't do well in a street test either. Given what the chassis is capable of (in GT350 and 350R form), they were even less impressed. Mustang paid for it with a DLF (Dead last finish)

The Kia over performed for MT, and MT admitted it. This is curious, and I went to watch the Car & Driver lightning lap on both cars (Kia Stinger GT and Mustang GT PP2). LL doesn't care about street, doesn't have a 'pro' driver, and is more objective test. Lap times, and vehicle price...thats it. Mustang did well. Best Mustang NOT a GT350R. Made the '13 GT500 look like crap.

Kia...not so much. One lap and it went off track. Brakes failed mid lap on first attempt. Had to call Kia and ask them to refit car with better brakes. Which apparently they did. Car finished, but lap time wasn't that great. VIR isn't LS. I'm not saying that the Kia performance at MT BDC would translate to C&D LL. However...the Kia was also not stock. They put some better brake pads on it, after requesting it from Kia.

Which makes me wonder....which ran first? BDC or LL? What kind of tires did the Kia have at BDC? What kind of brakes? LS isn't as fast as VIR, but also C&D didn't have a pro driver. I suspect that BCD followed the LL, and that Kia supplied a 'modified' Stinger GT with better brakes and possibly better tires than it comes with in stock form.

Need to research this.

Edit: Kia Stinger GT comes standard with Michelin Pilot Sport tires and 'brembos'. So maybe It wasn't doctored after all?

 

[Hack]

Honestly, I feel like the cars weren't exactly looked at subjectively. The Mustang placed poorly because it wasn't as good as the GT350, albeit being better than the Kia. The Stinger placed better because it's great for a Kia, albeit being drastically worse than an M3 (it's primary competitor). The Stelvio placed incredibly well simply because it's incredible for an SUV. But objectively, against all the other cars in this group, the ZR1 and Mustang should have at least been where the Stelvio and Stinger are respectively, with perhaps the M5 being between the 2 or below them, and the type R probably should've been lower as well (a fun car FOR a FWD econobox, but overall not a great car)

I agree with what you've said here. I can't imagine enjoying driving an SUV more than a Mustang just from the factor of being so high off the ground. And I know I wouldn't enjoy the Miata as much due to the lack of body control and low power.

I think you nailed it in that they decided to rate how good the cars were compared to something other than each other. And it didn't seem like price factored into the comparison at all - which is very unrealistic in my opinion. Almost every buying decision involves balancing the cost the consumer will pay versus the benefit gained.

 

[Darkhorse18]

So what is the difference in suspension between the gt350 and the pp2. The pp2 seems higher ? If the pp2 was lowered I bet it would change everything? I had a gt350 and traded for a pp2 the pp2 feels faster. I was constantly cleaning rocks out of the rear heat exchanger on the gt350

 

[thehunterooo]

Any updates on the PP2 class action lawsuit.

 

[Darkhorse18]

Saw this one on the 16 gt350
https://topclassactions.com/lawsuit...ace-mustang-track-ready-class-action-lawsuit/

 

[KingFuze]

It's not compatible. Input shaft of the TR3160 won't support the Coyote flywheel and clutch assembly. But even more so the PP2 and PP1 are still GT level cars and like it or not, from a packaging stand point, it doesn't make sense to convert an entire driveline for an unknown number of orders that the PP2 may or may not bring.

All you need it's a gt350 clutch and flywheel, it absolutely is compatible

 

[Darkhorse18]

All you need it's a gt350 clutch and flywheel, it absolutely is compatible

It makes sense because the engines are the same except the crank. They are using forged pistons and the same plasma piston sleeve process as the gt350 on the 18s also gives a tad more displacement. (Not counting the intake)

 

[racrguy]

They’re wildly different engines. Different heads, different intake, different block (5.2v5.0.) The list goes on. I think the only thing they really have in common is that they’re both based on the same basic architecture then drastically different from there.

 

[Laststandard]

Serious question - is there any suspension geometry difference between the GT / GT350 / GT350R? From a short browsing of the track forum here it seems like it's tough to get more than -2* of camber on the stock GT suspension. I know the Camaro likes to eat front tires at less than -2*.. I was able to get to -2.5* on the stock setup.

 

[jake_zx2]

Serious question - is there any suspension geometry difference between the GT / GT350 / GT350R? From a short browsing of the track forum here it seems like it's tough to get more than -2* of camber on the stock GT suspension. I know the Camaro likes to eat front tires at less than -2*.. I was able to get to -2.5* on the stock setup.

There isn't, GT350s are the same way. That's why a SUPER common first mod in the GT350 road racing community is caster/camber plates

 

[Darkhorse18]

They’re wildly different engines. Different heads, different intake, different block (5.2v5.0.) The list goes on. I think the only thing they really have in common is that they’re both based on the same basic architecture then drastically different from there.

The crank pulls a longer stroke giving more displacement? I was told that now the blocks are running down the same line since the 2018 motor.
Also was told that because of the vibration,the voodoo motors were not as durable as the 5.0
Now the 5.0 is a spray in cylinder liner just like the 5.2 the 2017 was still sleeved.

 

[KingFuze]

I have to agree with this

The crank pulls a longer stroke giving more displacement? I was told that now the blocks are running down the same line since the 2018 motor.
Also was told that because of the vibration,the voodoo motors were not as durable as the 5.0
Now the 5.0 is a spray in cylinder liner just like the 5.2 the 2017 was still sleeved.

I have to agree with this. I do not think the 5.2 is as robust and engine as the 5.0, to many of then having issues and blowing up. Sure there are problematic 5.0's but there are hundreds of thousands more of them on the road. My 57k mile 2015 coyote still has perfect compression and every oil analysis I have gotten back has been phenomenal even after drift events, Friday night drag events, or even 5000 miles a month daily driving.

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