Mikepol2

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Mikepol2

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This is from Tremec themselves with no mention of a ratio change:

Why Ford Chose the TREMEC TR-3160 Manual Transmission For The 2021 Mach 1

This is from Car and Driver again no mention of a ratio change:

2021 Ford Mustang Review, Pricing, and Specs (caranddriver.com)
Nobody is saying the Tremec ratios are different between the Mach and the GT350... I was saying that the Mach, with the different torque curve from the GT350, performs better with the Tremec on street driving than the GT with the MT-82.
 

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The GT350 Tremec numbers in this link are the ratios that I used for the Mach 1 in my calculations in the above linked post.
The 3160 ratios in there are the GT350. Not sure what you're looking at. With 3.73 rear (same as GT350) and same trans, whether or not the GT350 is geared for street use is gonna be the same problem for the Mach1, maybe slightly less with a SLIGHTLY better torque curve lower in the band.
 

Mikepol2

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The 3160 ratios in there are the GT350. Not sure what you're looking at. With 3.73 rear (same as GT350) and same trans, whether or not the GT350 is geared for street use is gonna be the same problem for the Mach1, maybe slightly less with a SLIGHTLY better torque curve lower in the band.
Not sure what else to tell you except that I've driven all three and the Mach clearly had the best performance at lower RPM's during normal street driving. Perhaps if you were able to find a dyno chart for the Mach vs the GT350, that might give you the numbers you're looking for to make sense of my statement. Or just go test drive a Mach and see for yourself.
 

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The 3160 ratios in there are the GT350. Not sure what you're looking at. With 3.73 rear (same as GT350) and same trans, whether or not the GT350 is geared for street use is gonna be the same problem for the Mach1, maybe slightly less with a SLIGHTLY better torque curve lower in the band.
It’s not maybe. The Mach HAS a better torque curve lower in the lower band. That is the entire point he’s trying to make to you. Trans and gearing are the same. And for the street, low in the rpm range, the Mach is more responsive. That advantage disappears as the rpms climb. But on the street where you are probably not cruising around at 5k this matters to the discussion.
 

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QUOTE="Angrey, post: 3214943, member: 51223"]
Please don't take this the wrong way, but it's been a lingering complaint against the GT350 for some time. Many driver's who just aren't accustomed to driving a high rev motor feel more comfortable in the traditional, big American V-8, hence the sales of the Chrysler boats.

Even the cadence and traditional pace of shifting in the GT350 is different, it has that extra breath at the top that if you're used to banging through gears on a "common" V-8, you tend to short shift.

The 350 owners who enjoy their cars have learned not to baby it. It's meant to live where it breathes.

The GT350 makes plenty of torque, it'll roll the tires right off, but you have to drive it like you mean it.

Some people don't like that or just can't get their brain around revving the motor out in between stop lights or on the way to the grocery store. But THAT is what the car is designed and made to do. So in that sense, a traditional V-8 and lower end torque is more daily driver friendly. The GT350 will pass other cars easily, IF YOU DOWNSHIFT, but there are people who prefer the low rpm lug mash of the gas.

You have to admire the purity of a car that's built more for racing and harsh use.

If someone wants a car that comes close(r) to that but still has more comfortable street manners, then the Mach is obviously the better choice.

But this idea that the GT350 doesn't have torque or it feels underpowered is simply because people are driving it incorrectly. The car has more torque than the terminator from the factory and we never heard anyone complaining about the vaunted 2003-2004 cobras.

So it boils down to two crowds, those that view revving the car out and rowing gears as a nuisance and more work and those that view that as a reward and a driver's experience they absolutely chose the car for.
[/QUOTE]

This is verbatim my experience. I came from a 5.7 Challenger with the 3.91 to a GT PP coyote initially. The chally felt faster and more powerful in daily driving (it certainly was not). Once I learned how the ‘yote liked to be driven, it was a different experience. Same now that I’ve gone to the 350. I rarely drive the car below 3k rpm, unless I’m on the highway. Even then, I only use 6th if I’m going 70mph or above. Car just doesn’t like it.

At 3k, even in 4th gear it has plenty of torque for daily driving.

I’m not recommending one over the other, just that it’s unfortunate that many judge the 350 based on a quick test drive. You really do have to drive it differently than most other cars to get “the experience” people talk about with the car.

I don’t think there is a bad or wrong choice here. Just depends on what you are looking for.
 

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It’s not maybe. The Mach HAS a better torque curve lower in the lower band. That is the entire point he’s trying to make to you. Trans and gearing are the same. And for the street, low in the rpm range, the Mach is more responsive. That advantage disappears as the rpms climb. But on the street where you are probably not cruising around at 5k this matters to the discussion.
I'm skeptical. I'm betting (not having seen OEM dynos overlayed) that whatever torque advantage there is (if any) will be marginal/negligible. I'm betting, that JUST like the GT350, everyone complains about the gutless nature of the car because of the gearing. I'm betting that if you drove them side by side in a race, they'd be VERY close.

Keep in mind that the GT350 puts out MORE torque than the Mach1 yote, and 56 more peak horsepower.

I'm betting a lot of this is placebo or wishful thinking.

I'm betting that if you swapped a voodoo motor in a GT350 out for a CPC coyote motor (equivalent spec to the 480/420 of the Mach and Bullet) that you would NOT see an improvement and most likely you'd see a step down.

Until someone puts up some sort of quantitative proof, it's all pure speculation (including all my assertions above).
 

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I'm skeptical. I'm betting (not having seen OEM dynos overlayed) that whatever torque advantage there is (if any) will be marginal/negligible. I'm betting, that JUST like the GT350, everyone complains about the gutless nature of the car because of the gearing. I'm betting that if you drove them side by side in a race, they'd be VERY close.

Keep in mind that the GT350 puts out MORE torque than the Mach1 yote, and 56 more peak horsepower.

I'm betting a lot of this is placebo or wishful thinking.

I'm betting that if you swapped a voodoo motor in a GT350 out for a CPC coyote motor (equivalent spec to the 480/420 of the Mach and Bullet) that you would NOT see an improvement and most likely you'd see a step down.

Until someone puts up some sort of quantitative proof, it's all pure speculation (including all my assertions above).
i just did a quick google search and looked at a 19 bullitt graph and a 17gt350 graph. they were done at different times and locations so they are not overlayed. there are obviously too many factors to make any type of concrete conclusion based on this quick search but the bullitt was ahead down low (looked like 40-50 ft lbs at 3000 rpm). the gt350 started spiking at 3600 rpm or so and passed the bullitt by 4000, maybe a little after.
how significant are these numbers even if they are an accurate representation of both models? i can't say, other than the coyote does make more tq low in the power band which would translate well to driving on the street where unless you're in the process of breaking the law, more power sub 4000 rpm is a good thing. no one is disputing the gt350 making more peak hp or that it comes alive at some point in the rpm range to pass the bullitt/mach 1. but having to spin it up to 4000 and beyond to get better numbers than the bullitt/mach 1, is not an argument for the gt350 being as good or better on the street
 

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Thus it would be best if the Mach's manual ratios were similar to those in the '15-'17 MT82, which are pretty stout coupled with 3.73s (I can start in 2nd gear with no issue).

I don't know if that's the case, but I would tend to doubt it given the taller trans gearing on the '18+ manual cars for fuel economy ratings.
 

shogun32

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Thus it would be best if the Mach's manual ratios were similar to those in the '15-'17 MT82, which are pretty stout coupled with 3.73s.
11-17 MT82, Boss 302
3.662.431.691.321.000.65

TR3166
3.252.231.611.241.000.63

18+ MT82
3.242.101.421.000.810.62

2001 Cobra
3.382.001.321.000.68n/a

The original is very noticeably shorter in the first 2 gears. Anyone who owned those 11-17 cars was very used to the short gearing and it is understandable the 18+ MT82 came as a shock.
 
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Angrey

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i just did a quick google search and looked at a 19 bullitt graph and a 17gt350 graph. they were done at different times and locations so they are not overlayed. there are obviously too many factors to make any type of concrete conclusion based on this quick search but the bullitt was ahead down low (looked like 40-50 ft lbs at 3000 rpm). the gt350 started spiking at 3600 rpm or so and passed the bullitt by 4000, maybe a little after.
how significant are these numbers even if they are an accurate representation of both models? i can't say, other than the coyote does make more tq low in the power band which would translate well to driving on the street where unless you're in the process of breaking the law, more power sub 4000 rpm is a good thing. no one is disputing the gt350 making more peak hp or that it comes alive at some point in the rpm range to pass the bullitt/mach 1. but having to spin it up to 4000 and beyond to get better numbers than the bullitt/mach 1, is not an argument for the gt350 being as good or better on the street
The problem down low is that simply mashing at a different starting rpm will yield a different curve down low (drastically). If you mash at 800 rpm or you mash at 2000 rpm, your torque values at 2500 rpm are going to look different.
 

Strokerswild

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15-17 MT82
3.662.431.691.321.000.65

TR3166
3.252.231.611.241.000.63

The original is very noticeably shorter in the first 2 gears.
And the '18+ MT82 gearing?
 

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Good grief........ this is making a mole out of an ant hill.

The Mach 1 was never intended to be a GT350 and vice-versa. Trying to compare the two is moot.

I had two modern B302s and now I’m on my second 350R. Even with the lighter rotating mass and unsprung weight of the R, it can’t match the B302’s low-end grunt at 2-3k rpm. That being said, even though the B302 could rev past 7k, the power dropoff past 6500 rpms compared to the 350R is night and day. They are two excellent Mustangs, yet worlds apart.

The Mach 1 is Ford’s most-capable track car on the market right now (excluding the GT500CFTP) and is a bargain deal for what you get, which is a fantastically fun grocery getter and a stupid sweet weekend track car. Yes, the 350 can still do that, but I get it if no one wants to feel the torque at 4500rpms most the time.It’s not for those cats.

I love my R... I could care less what the guy sitting cross the red light from me in a PP2, GT500, Mach 1 or a Mach E (lol) thinks... we still give each other a thumbs up and keep on keeping on because we both know we have a good choice in cars (Mach E people don’t thumbs-up for some reason, lol).

Let’s all enjoy these great cars before you have to plug one in.

Edited to include: PS, if you think a Mach 1 is just “loud” because of its “flathead firing order”, you probably think Picasso painted with Crayons.
 

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